Burnout with Tiffany Mattick
Season 1, Episode 35
Summary:
What’s the difference between fatigue and burnout and how do you prevent it from happening? Tiffany Mattick, fellow coach and Founder of There She Grows, joined me in a conversation that started with a podcast and then a book called “Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle”. We have had a number of clients bring this up in coaching sessions, both feeling it coming on and wanting to avoid it. We share our experiences, how we coach through ongoing stress and overwhelm, and highlights from the book. This and more on today’s episode of Champions of RISK.
Links:
“Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle” by Emily Nagoski, PhD and Amelia Nagoski, DMA
Brene Brown, Unlocking Us podcast, episode on Burnout and How to Complete the Stress Cycle
There She Grows at tiffanymattick.com
November Masterclass on The Secrets of the Worlds Most Successful People
Transcript:
Michael Kithcart:
Hello, everybody, I'm Michael Kithcart. Welcome to the Champions of RISK podcast where we examine the many aspects of risk so that we can all face uncertainty with more strength and courage together. Hey, today we are going to talk about burnout. And burnout kind of makes me laugh, because that's what we called the kids that were across the street from school in high school, and we're smoking cigarettes before class, we used to call it the burnout corner. But burnout today is gonna represent something very different. It is a conversation that has been very consistent, I would say over the course of the year, especially this year. And when you dig into it, it's really about a lot of things. So I think this is going to be a juicy conversation. So I enlisted my fellow coach and friend Tiffany Mattick to join me today. Because Tiffany and I have great conversations. And we see things differently. We have different perspectives and in experiences, and we both help people move through what it is that they're going through now in order to get to where they want to go so that they can be their best selves. So this is going to be a fun conversation, I want to just share with you a little bit about Tiffany because she's amazing. After she spent 25 years working for a large global corporation, where she was developing leaders and teams, Tiffany took her passion for leadership development. And she started her own company. She too is an entrepreneur. And I love the name of her company. It's called there she grows through custom workshop experiences group and executive coaching. Tiffany lives her purpose by creating experiences for leaders to connect, grow and become the best version of themselves at work, and at home. So Tiffany, welcome.
Tiffany Mattick:
Thank you. Thank you.
Michael Kithcart:
Oh, glad.
Tiffany Mattick:
So excited to be here with you.
Michael Kithcart:
Thank you, you know, this topic came up because you Tiffany, and I like trade a lot of you know, information. Oh, Have you listened to this? Have you listened to that? And she's like, okay, here's the podcast, you need to be listening to this one. And we both listened to Bren Brown Unlocking Us. And the topic was on Burnout, that two sisters wrote The Secret Of Unlocking The Stress Cycle by Emily and Amelia and Nagoski, because we want to give them credit for that. And it started sparking lots of conversation amongst between the two of us. So I wanted to get on the podcast here and and share this conversation. And really kind of kick things off, let's just go for broke sister. You know, burnout is something that we can all relate to, in some way, shape or form. My sense is that you have experienced burnout in your life. Is that true?
Tiffany Mattick:
I absolutely have been there. And the farther away I get from kind of what I consider to be like my worst year ever. And more clearly, I can see what was truly happening during that period of burnout. I had just been promoted to into a director role. And there was a lot of work to be done and a lot of things that I needed to learn and try to understand. And I had to hire a team. But I was very hard on myself, I had super high expectations. And what I learned very quickly is that the stress and pressure that I was putting on myself over time, so in my mind, I had a picture of what it meant to be a director. Also, in my mind, I didn't feel like I was measuring up. I wasn't getting it. I wasn't getting it fast enough. I didn't understand what was going on. And so it was I was really struggling to get into this job. And I was struggling to find any sort of feeling that I was that I was successful at it. Like I was just really struggling. And so I was beating myself up. And I was telling myself all these stories about what it looked like and how, you know, I'd wake up every day and I would try to get in there and get after it and figure things out. And it just wasn't working. And I've never had this in my life before. But what ended up happening is I started getting sick. And so I was only in my mid 30s I had two young kids. So I'm doing the whole you know, I'm mom. I have two kids in elementary school. But then also as I'm trying to figure out this new job, we decided to undergo a huge construction project at home. So I'm doing all the things right, like I am master of all things, I can be the corporate director lady, I'm doing the project manager lady of the construction job. I have no experience there, but I'm a project manager so I can do anything right so managing the kids managing the job managing the home, my home is a dust bowl of construction. And the stress was just I mean I just I got some weird, like, I don't even know, it doesn't matter, like autoimmune, like my joints were hurting, like I could barely get out of bed. And this continued through this whole summer of 2008. And I just wasn't getting it. And so one of the things that I think is super important about this conversation is that our body sometimes, well not sometimes, usually sends us signals long before we actually catch on. So like this whole year, like I was my body, like if there if it's possible for your body to put up a like a, I surrender like red flag, like, are you hearing me like how many more messages and signals do I have to send you to let you know that I am, like this something is not right? And I'm trying to get that message to you, you're not listening. And so I spent the whole year in, I will call it burned out self destruction. And I was so over every I mean, I just was at absolute max on stress, and my body was starting to fail. And I, we can come back to my biggest moments of I flooded my basement accidentally, like I was so off my game that it didn't take it took until the end of the year, I had my appendix out. Like it just it was like one thing after the other and I had so many warning signs and so many red flags. And it wasn't until the end of the year, when I sat down with my boss and had my review, that I had my moment of insight, which was I was actually creating this whole year of trauma. right between my ears. It was self inflicted, because I thought I wasn't good enough. And I thought, you know, I just had all of these, everything came up for me that you're in it was, it's almost like my body and my mind, I was so off. And you know, we were not going to dive into this. But it actually, you know, got me to where I am today that experience. But like when we hit those, like absolute, I mean, I was on the floor of my basement sobbing after I refinished construction in the basement. And a week later, I flooded it.
Michael Kithcart:
Oh my gosh. So everything. This is just like this, your there are so many examples here, okay, of like, the signs are always there. It's just whether or not we're paying attention to them. And the more that we ignore the signs that our bodies and our minds are trying to and the universe is trying to share with us, the louder the message is going to get until you get to a flooding of your basement,
Tiffany Mattick:
Like do- and or, emergency I got to run over and have my appendix removed quick. Sorry, kids, it's Halloween, but I'm dying here. And I gotta go. So I mean, like, it's like how I mean, if I truly if we got into like every detail of that year, you've never seen more warning signs, signals, messages to self like, I mean, it was so overwhelming. And I don't even know if burnout is the word self destruction, like the word the bottom of the bottom, from a stress perspective, my body was down, my mind was down, everything was down. Like, those were down, I needed a serious restart reboot.
Michael Kithcart:
Well, and when, you know, there are moments in our life to where we decide to take on a lot of things either by choice or like, that's just kind of what life is serving up to us at this moment. And one of the things like signals burnout is a lot of times people get surprised by it like here, here's my piece about Yep, my body shutting down the basement's flooding, that type of thing. But you keep going and you push and you push and you push, like burnout is like a lack of anticipation. If you are thinking like I have small kids in school, and I'm going to undertake a huge project, and I'm going to start a new job. You know, for some people, it's like, I'm and I'm going to move, and we're going to get a dog. And we're going to like, you know, do all these things, right? Like, let's stop for a moment and go. Okay, what is that going to do to our ecosystem here? And and how can we protect it? So we share stories of what's happened, sometimes it's easier to see things in others than it is in ourselves. And as we talk today, we'll certainly share some things that can be helpful so that people don't get to the point of burnout. And if you're already feeling like you are there, how can we get you out of it?
Tiffany Mattick:
Which I do think a lot of people are feeling that way, especially right now. So I think that tip you know, just tips and ideas in that conversation around what do you do you know, what should I have done that year? When I was at the bottom of the barrel? Your career is as long as mine but have you had those moments to where you're like this was a bottom for me?
Michael Kithcart:
Yeah, I think there were there. There's kind of like a couple of moments that I think about but mostly what comes to mind is how I was just on purpose in my mid to late twenties. I've actually had sleep paralysis twice in my life. And the first time that it happened, I didn't know what it was. And it freaked me out. It is where like, you wake up and you your body doesn't move. Your it will it just it shuts down. It says like, nope, no more. It's so freaky when you're in it, because you can't do anything, it just like your body makes you go back to sleep. And I had that once. And then like two years later, and this was earlier, you know, in my my career in life, and and then it happened again, too. So like, I didn't learn my lesson. But I used to take pride in the fact that I would only let myself sleep four hours a night.
Tiffany Mattick:
And that was like bragging rights, are you saying?
Michael Kithcart:
Yes, yep. It's like, this is I'm only gonna do it. I don't need any more than four hours of sleep. And, and I have to do it seven days a week, because, you know, you have to stay on this rhythm. Otherwise, you'll get out of sync. Yeah, I would like go into the office at like, 330 in the morning, because the gym next door didn't open until 515. This is like a do not do this. Okay, this is really stupid. And then I didn't understand why. And I get really frustrated with myself when my body would completely shut down. And for me, it would be in my back. And my back would go out. And I would be like completely incapacitated. I couldn't, couldn't move. Right. But I thought that was like the way I had to be. That's what I had to do. I think I read it in a book, right? This is what somebody that was successful-
Tiffany Mattick:
That's what successful people do, Michael.
Michael Kithcart:
Yeah. Okay. I'm just gonna tell you right now, there are different things that successful people do. Other than that, and my solution to that was to completely remove myself from the situation like, I left the country, I left the job, I left everything like I did an extreme. Wow. And it probably took me six months before I figured out like, Oh, yeah, I just completely wore myself out unnecessarily.
Tiffany Mattick:
So do you think so just tying this into the book a little bit, a little bit more. So one of the things they talked about in the book, which I'm still learning about, I'm not going to claim to be an expert in this because I think it's a journey is this whole idea that you have to move through the tunnel of the feeling or the emotion or the stress, like you have to finish the stress response cycle. So sometimes we take on stress, and like for me, I think it got so trapped in my body, that then my body's like, Oh, well, I have no other choice but to get sick, like it does. Like we don't let things flow through us. They build and they build and they build. And that's where we get sick, or that's when you know things happen to us, because our body is is holding on to that stress. So I appreciate it in the book that I'm talking about getting through that full cycle. And the ways to do that. And I think it's super interesting. One of the things that inspired me immediately, and I can't remember if it was from the podcast, or from the book, was this idea that movement, like the act of moving is the key to wellness. I mean, when you think of wellness and well being and I wanted to actually read the definition of well being because I think it's an interesting, I it was a good perspective for me to look at, you know, how is it defined actually? And you do I read that quick?
Michael Kithcart:
No, I want you to because you do wellness courses and and you work with people on well being. So go ahead and read that.
Tiffany Mattick:
So it just says that wellness is not a state of being but a state of action. It is the freedom to move fluidly through the cyclical, oscillating experiences of being human. So if you just sit and do nothing with it, and I got reminded of this the other night, I was watching I don't watch any TV. However, I do watch This Is Us and we had this premiere on Tuesday night. And so I was watching the show, and it was amazing. And at 10pm the news came on right after. And the two leading stories were a lady got mugged on 15th in France or got carjacked. And then the second story was about how bad the COVID spike is. And like for me, I don't expose myself to any of that. But the world does, right. And so we're sitting in Facebook, and we're just like being drowned right now. And so much like negativity and fear. And I noticed in my body the second I was I took in that information I noticed all of a sudden I start questioning and like should I do this? Should I not do that? My mom's going to be 81 on Friday, maybe we shouldn't go to lunch, you know, like it just it's like fear factor. So the environment when we sit in the environment, and we just let the environment kind of throw up on us. If you just sit in that in all day every day and you never like move it through or question it or take action. I just love this idea of the if you're going to keep yourself well. You can't just sit still in it. You have to keep moving through it and moving forward like not just sitting back, does that make sense?
Michael Kithcart:
It makes perfect sense. And if you think about it too, just in a in a simple, just example, or test, if you don't believe it is when you notice that your mind starts racing and it's making you start to feel anxious, you know, or frustrated or angry, because you're thinking through a scenario that happened or you anticipate it's going to happen to get up and like, go walk around the block or go, you know, just go into another room, and to physically start moving, how quickly it can shift your thoughts. Sometimes I have to remind myself of that, like, it doesn't have to be that you are, you go out and you run a half marathon, just getting up and moving for a few minutes, can help move you through that stress point.
Tiffany Mattick:
And just noticing the shift. You know, we've all felt that shift, you know, it can be in any time your moods down, you're noticing you have a low mood, or you're crabby, you're irritable, whatever it is just that active movement can be that just I mean, that's always a go to, I think that should be everybody's like immediate go to. And when I heard that whole thing about the stress response cycle and moving through the tunnel that they talked about, yes, that inspired me. I'm like, Alright, let's get through that tunnel. Let's get out there and get moving. Yeah, just to help yourself, because stress is coming up every day all the time.
Michael Kithcart:
It is and this is where I have to admit. So I listened to the podcast, I got the book. And again, it's called Burnout, The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle, and we'll put a link in there. But like, the bonehead thing is that this book is actually a book about women's survival. And I had no idea. Like I didn't even get that. I didn't get that listening to the to authors or any of that this in particular, is about how women experience stress move through it, and the many, many things that can contribute to us getting to that point of burnout. Like did you get that right away?
Tiffany Mattick:
Well, I think the things I attached to or picked up on were things like self care, connection, and it can't remember if they talk to the podcast about bigger meaning like, you know, purpose, those types of things. So I don't know that I knew we were going to get like directly into some of the things that impact women and society. And just in I noticed that my clients too is that like, we like one of my really close clients. She's a friend and a client. Like she feels guilty when she does any sort of self care, because she's not being productive. So I think women are just so like, driven to produce and even I sat down last night I'm like, is it Oh, can I actually I literally went through in my head. Do I have time to sit down right now? Can I actually just sit here and do nothing? It's this like intense need to, like constantly be serving, either serving others fixing the house, you know, cleaning up dishes, I mean, there's always something to be done. And so can you just sit in the knowing that I deserve to rest. And that was a big note in the book, like we have to rest. And for those like, I'm kind of an overachiever, go getter. You know, like, I could work all day and night because I love what I do so much, but it's like, that's not gonna serve me. I have to rest.
Michael Kithcart:
Yeah. And so there's different points on that, right? Because I bet that there are some people that are listening right now that are going like, Yeah, sure. Okay, good. Just tell me to rest right, sleep more. That's, that's it. But in order for me to like, have my self care, that means I have to get up earlier in the morning to have my alone time. And so I want to like expand that perception of rest, because rest is also like recharging and recharging. What I just said about like, even getting up and moving around. And I do when I do this, Tiffany, I gotta tell you, I feel so much better. Like we're talking three to five minutes. Like even just like taking recharging by getting up going to the bathroom, getting a glass of water, or some more coffee or whatever it is, it's gonna make you feel good. But just standing up like I don't know, bend over stretch, and then sit down for your next zoom, call the 17th one of the day, but even that little thing is, is a rest recharge.
Tiffany Mattick:
So what I'm hearing you say is that sometimes we overthink things and over- they're not grandiose, self care does not have to be, Oh, I need two hours a day to sit in the bathtub, and to take some deep breaths. Like that's not I think what I'm hearing you say is if you have a habit of going to the bathroom, which we all have, when you go to the bathroom, take five deep breaths, like build in breathing into habits and routines that you already have throughout your day. Self care does not have to be, Oh, Saturday, I will take a second for myself. When I when I finally get to Saturday, then I'll breathe, that strategy is broken. You need to be baking self care all throughout the day. And the other thing that I just was reminded, just open the book to a page, I just want to say this is that you are not the victim of your life. You're not helpless to it. And I talk to people every day that are so helpless to the circumstances, I get that there's a pandemic, but you don't have to be the victim of it.
Michael Kithcart:
No,
Tiffany Mattick:
And that is a choice in your mind. And so women sometimes have a tendency because of the conditioning, because of the patriarchy, because of a lot of the things that have happened in our world. They're conditioned to be helpless. And it's like, actually, you're not helpless. You can take charge, you can ask for what you need, you can set boundaries, you can do all those things, and do it without any sort of guilt or any sort of, you know, oh, should I do I deserve that? You know, am I good enough to take a break?
Michael Kithcart:
Yeah, no, like taking power back is is really important. Step two, to avoid, I mean, really, you know, on some level, we're talking about how can you actually avoid burnout to begin with, everybody has fatigue, everybody has, you know, days where their energy level are, you know, is lower. And that is, that is totally okay, burnout is like exceeding that point of no return. Like, you know, you really are at that. And so building in self care. So I love what you're saying, like baking that into your day is really important. Because otherwise, if we think well, I need to like book out the 90 minute massage and stuff, the likelihood of you doing that is less than if you just start building in little pieces that can help make your day actually more enjoyable.
Tiffany Mattick:
And I assume most people know this now. But there's no excuse because the access to resources today that we have, like apps that help you breathe, there's there's millions of five minute body scan meditation, sit down and relax. Like, we have access to so many tools that you really, I don't believe anybody can tell me that they don't have five minutes to breathe. We all have five minutes to breathe throughout the day. It's just a matter of getting it into your habits, getting it into your routine, reminding yourself you know, the Apple Watch now is you know, constantly reminding us to breathe. And what I want to say about the breath is that we, our body isn't this amazing machine that came with a system that helps you actually self regulate and self soothe and self calm by just taking a breath. So when we breathe, so when we're like in that panic stress, we're breathing, like from the I don't even know the words, but like from the upper like in our head. And we're not breathing down into the belly and really getting a good deep breath. Just that shift alone, I believe could really, really help somebody who was just in this like frantic state of overwhelm. Yeah, let's simplify things. Simplifying elements of our life simplifying, things that can help us and again, we're talking about here is like, it's important to move through the stress cycle. So how do we get to the other side of things? This is this is what research is showing. Like, I'm gonna just say, when I first heard these, I like it did an eye roll. Okay, I did an eye roll. Because, I mean, I agree with the physical activity. I agree with the breathing. That's not the stuff that makes me eyeroll. Okay, the thing that made me eyeroll was the affection piece. Do you need to sit down and make out and hug and squeeze and do all that? Yeah, I know. I saw it, I read it.
Michael Kithcart:
I like okay, it's like, oh, yeah, to like, grab on to the other person. And you know, obviously, I'm eye-rolling someone because it's like, okay, in the age of COVID everybody's touching, all right. But even in my own home, right, you know, with my significant other, and I and then I made myself do it. And I'm just like, Okay, I'm just gonna hug you. Like, let's just hug. And it did feel better. It did feel better then he eye-rolled. But actually, you know, it was, it was nice. You know, are there other things that you think you would say that you do consistently, Tiffany?
Tiffany Mattick:
One of the things that totally I just, I'm in this sort of content most days, but the one thing that from the book that just gave me like kind of a spark of like, yes, was the whole bit on meaning. So like when we get so consumed, like, like my community, and the people around me right now are so consumed like, and I and I have full like compassion for what they're trying. They're trying to work. They're trying to be there kids, teachers, they're trying to not get sick, like, like the, the level of things that people are trying to do right now is crazy to like we are in a huge moment right now, right? And we're being pushed and asked to do things we've never had to do before. And I want to come back to that before the end of the conversation. But what I'll finish saying about from the book is this whole idea that if you can connect to something bigger than yourself, so when you're in these moments of like, Oh, my God, I got to figure out the kids schooling and they got to log on, and we got to get on zoom like, that is so disconnected. And it's so head, you know, very head, you know, your mind is racing, and you're very much in your head. But I think if you can be more connected to something greater than yourself, like, here we are on this planet, temporarily living a life, I'm pretty sure we weren't sent for total suffering. You know, we weren't, you know, I don't think that was the intent, like the intent is to find love and joy and like purpose. And so this idea of meaning, and just being able to connect to that everyday, like, why am I walking on this planet? Like, why am I here. And right now, it might be just love your kids through the experience of COVID. And through the experience of remote learning, you know, like, that might be what you got today to do. And that's your purpose today. So if you can connect and see it in a bigger, more like, spiritual or just higher, there's something bigger than you at play. And your reason for being on this earth is huge. Like you weren't accidentally just kicked over here into this world, like you were actually here for a reason. And if you can tap into that, that feeling feels way different than Oh, my God, I'm my kids teacher. It's just a different mindset. Like there's I think there's just a different way of it's a different perspective.
Michael Kithcart:
It is. Looking at things a different way, can actually have a calming effect, right. You know, one of the things that I loved about the book that taps into this, I think, is that, and we just talked a little bit about self care. But what if self care was really about caring for each other? That that is really when we think about it in order for someone to have the time to, you know, take read a book, or take a bath, or go have that massage, or go walk with their friends and or workout or whatever. It requires the people around them to be in support of that. And so what if we were in support of that for each other, so that everybody in the household got some of their own, you know, what I'm doing air quotes here, "self care," that you've had a conversation at home asking what that meant for everybody. And everybody in the room agrees that they're going to be in support of that. Maybe it extends outside of that even into community. There's lots of parents right now that are kind of co-schooling, you know, they've got kids in pods, if that's the case, are there ways that you can be supportive? And you are by doing that, right? Because then parents have time to, to focus on their work and stuff like that. But I just think that I loved that thought of how can it be caring for each other, that also get-
Tiffany Mattick:
I think people are starving for community right now. Like we've been isolated, and I even feel it myself. Like, if I sit here at home all day with my dog, like, by the end of the day, I'm like, I need some human connection or conversation or something to like, build me back up. So I think we're feeling lonely. I think we're feeling isolated. And so just to be super intentional about making sure your calendar has someone or something that you can share with and that you can be heard that whole authentic, being able to show up emotionally vulnerable. And maybe you do need to call somebody and say, You know what, this really sucks. Like, I hate the fact that I'm the kids teacher or whatever. I keep using that as the example because I feel like it's just really relevant right now. But you know, just having that person that you can call to air it out with for a second, it doesn't mean you have to stay in it. I mean, one of the things I'm noticing in some of my groups and just with some clients is that if you wake up every single day, and you're just pushing against the reality, meaning Oh, COVID Oh, this Oh, that like, the reality is we're in a pandemic. The reality is, this is what's happening with school, the reality, there's so much reality, but if you wake up every day and you're pushing against it, I wish it wasn't this way, like the reality you have to accept reality so that you can actually get on with it. Otherwise you just become the victim every day. Are you gonna just wake up every day and be the victim of this? Are you actually going to become more powerful and take action towards you know, whatever it is you need to do. It's it's two completely different mindsets, but I feel like reality, like not accepting reality is really getting in the way right now.
Michael Kithcart:
Here's a statement that I'll just say it: life doesn't test you, it reflects you. And when I share that, sometimes it triggers people.
Tiffany Mattick:
Okay, so let's pick that apart for one second, I need to process that. So say that one more time. So life does not test you?
Michael Kithcart:
Life does not, life does not test you. And I know a lot of people are feeling tested right now. But life does not test you. It reflects you.
Tiffany Mattick:
So is this also- Okay, hold on, I want to connect with something else you and I have talked about before? Is this the same as this idea of the lemons. So when you squeeze the lemon, what comes out? Lemon juice. When I get squeezed, whatever comes out of me is a reflection of who I am. Right?
Michael Kithcart:
Right.
Tiffany Mattick:
Is this similar? Or am I making a poor connection?
Michael Kithcart:
No, you're making a great connection you are it is a great connection. It is similar. So you know, it is about the we can only control our response to things that are out of our control, like a question could be how does this pertain to me? I'm not going to get into a political conversation here. But some people are going to be happy on Wednesday, next Wednesday. And some are well, actually, by the time this airs, the election will have happened. Okay. So some people are going to be happy from the election outcomes and some people aren't, it doesn't matter. And on some level, whoever's going to be our next president, it does not pertain to us it. And if you really, like break that down from the standpoint of how are you going to think about it, right? Like once that decision has been made? Now, it's how are you going to get on with your your life? And how are you going to participate in your community? And how are you going to be good to others? And how are you- Like, all of that is still within our realm of option and possibility. And when things are happening to us that we don't like, like life doesn't happen to us it you know, it reflects us.
Tiffany Mattick:
Or it happens for us.
Michael Kithcart:
Yes, life happens for us. That isn't exactly another way of it doesn't test us, it reflects us. It happens, life happens for us. So if we think about that, and if we don't like what's going on in our lives, or how we're handling certain situations that feel like they're out of our control, coming back to the fact that we can control how we think about things. And so I have a friend who says if you don't like it change the way you think about it. So like that pretty much is it? Yep. And that can help you move through a stressor too. Like that can help you move through a stress cycle is actually reframing how you are seeing things.
Tiffany Mattick:
Perspective. And I think it's a whole entire podcast conversation to talk about thought, but you're only ever one thought away from a better mood.
Michael Kithcart:
Yeah.
Tiffany Mattick:
If you are sitting your anger, if you're sitting here thinking about right here in this moment, something that really makes you mad, well, then you're feeling mad, you're feeling angry. But if like somebody surprisingly showed up at the door with a puppy, all of a sudden, like you would be overcome with joy, right? Like joy would all of a sudden enter in. Well, what was what's the difference between those two moments? Just your thoughts?
Michael Kithcart:
Right. Right.
Tiffany Mattick:
All of a sudden you shifted from I'm hating whatever's happening right here right now. But, Oh look a puppy, and I get to go interact with this puppy, and suddenly, you're brought into pure joy.
Michael Kithcart:
And it's something simple like that, right? You know, so finding things, what are things that that do bring you joy in life? How can you spark joy?
Tiffany Mattick:
Yes!
Michael Kithcart:
And, how do you spark joy for other-
Tiffany Mattick:
(unclear) talking about laughter? Go, you you might have to create it or find it or go look for it.
Michael Kithcart:
Yes, yes. You know, hey, for me, sometimes when I am just like, feeling frustrated, angry, I get in the car. And I sing at the top of my lungs and you know, I play all my girl power music, my Pink my Aretha, you know, George, um, George Michael's Freedom, you know. And like, if you really want to have fun with it, make sure you're singing really loudly and enunciating the words while you're pulling up to a car next to you.
Tiffany Mattick:
I love that. And if you could add a few dance moves with it, I think you've really gone next level,
Michael Kithcart:
Yes
Tiffany Mattick:
But I don't want to underestimate the value and the power of dancing. I used it when my when my daughter lived here with me full time, we danced all the time. And I know it can be embarrassing, and everybody thinks they're horrible at it. But when you do it, and you are listening to music that you love, it is an instant shift. So using music, music and dance, I feel like are easy go to quick, Quick Hits.
Michael Kithcart:
Yes. And they're right there. They're, they're right there in in your home. So I want to come back to the the part about like, you know, we're craving connection, because you and I both hear this a lot and have different ways that we create connection for for people. And there in the book, I thought they synthesized it very, very well by saying humans are not built to function autonomously, okay, like, that is not how we are wired at all. We are built to oscillate from connection to autonomy and back again. Connection with friends, with family, with pets, with the divine, all the things that you mentioned, Tiffany, it is as necessary to us as food and water, that that's how important it is. And that's why when, you know, our rituals have been interrupted, because of COVID. We can't, you know, hug as many people as we used to, we're not seeing our family like we used to those things are all interrupting necessity items that we have typically gone to whether intentionally or you know, unintentionally, but that that feed us that recharge us that helped keep us on track that helped keep us going when things are, are harder. So finding things that we can do right now, in the, you know, whatever environment we're in, that that's healthy and safe is is, I would say more important than it's ever been.
Tiffany Mattick:
And I think it's important to notice, when you think of all the people you're exposed to do, you walk away from a person feeling lifted, or depleted? Because I don't believe all connection is created equal. If you get into a conversation with your sister, and all of a sudden you hang up the phone and you feel horrible. I do not think that's what we're talking about. I do not think that you get out of burnout cycles and stress cycles by connecting with people that make you feel like crap.
Michael Kithcart:
Yes, that's, that's a fantastic point.
Tiffany Mattick:
If everybody you chat with is just like complaining about everything all the time, you need to find new people. You need to start getting into situations or being intentional about actually surrounding yourself with people that when you hang up that phone, or hang up, close your computer off zoom or whatever it is now, you actually feel like you have been lifted up and made better by that conversation, not dragged down.
Michael Kithcart:
And when you stop and think about how much of your time is being occupied right now, by people who are either lifting you up or bringing you down, it's a good inventory.
Tiffany Mattick:
And sometimes we don't have a choice. I had a co worker that I would get on the phone with her, she was out in New York. And within the first two seconds of getting on the line with her, I could tell what her mood was. And usually it was the lowest crappiest mood you could ever- I mean just I found her to be like, we just did not gel. She, I found her to be very mean and unkind. So by the time- I'd get on the phone call, I'd be feeling fine. By the time I hung up with her I was so low and drained and depleted. I didn't get to choose that I had to work with her for a while. And you know, I didn't get to choose that. But it's just the act of noticing if you're never and they talk about that in the book, too. It's just that we aren't we have choice. We're not the you know, I hung up that phone, I took a minute of awareness to say, wow, I have just given away my energy to this other person. We're going to bring it back here, we need to come back and we need to come back to where I was when I started this call. I have the ability to choose something better. I don't have to give away my energy to these people. Because they're vampires, right? There's people all over us that are taking our energy. So how are we gonna have to keep our stores up so that we can get ourselves back up and get yourself back into a better mindset and just better energy?
Michael Kithcart:
Yeah, I think too, you know, there again, if we're talking specifically about women, and how women's roles just in general how We tend to be more of the caregivers, that research shows that women will persist a lot longer than men well. You know. And so we think, if we just carry that relationship piece alone through that, it's like, right, you know, it's like, well, you know, maybe I can lift that person's mood, or maybe they're just really struggling and I want to be there for them. Or we feel that way, in particular about certain family members, even though we don't feel great about it afterwards, to just if there's anybody out there just just I think we both really want to just say you have permission to minimize the exposure that you have with people who are bringing you down, if you can't flat out eliminate it, to find ways to minimize it.
Tiffany Mattick:
One of my therapists gave me one of the most important pieces of advice that I've ever been given is that mothers or anybody are not responsible to save our children from their own story.
Michael Kithcart:
Hmm.
Tiffany Mattick:
So we're constantly and I've seen this in my own life, you're just constantly trying to prevent people from having to struggle. Mom in particular, we're always trying to keep the peace, keep everybody happy, keep the house happy. Keep everybody at peace. Well, that's exhausting for the mother. So if we can just release some of that need to save everybody from their own suffering and let them live into their own stories. It's a huge weight off your shoulders. It's like you have stories and those stories made you who you are. They're not all perfect. They're not all perfect stories. They're hard stories, right? We've all struggled. So don't try to save everybody from their own story. It's, it's part of living suffering is also part of living. So it's like, if you can just take that off your shoulders, it just gives you a chance to step back from it all. You don't have to fix everybody. It's not what you were brought here to do is not possible. You'll never win that game. You'll never get there. You're never land.
Michael Kithcart:
No way, the game is rigged.
Tiffany Mattick:
Probably got in our favor, right?
Michael Kithcart:
No, no, no, no. But we want to, what we want to do is help keep people seeing and believing and feeling like there is hope, you know, because there always is. Getting into burnout can start to feel like there's hopelessness that's like the difference, one of the differences between like, being fatigued, and actually being completely burned out. Want to be really like, mental health is such a big topic in a big pandemic, I would say, you know, here, especially in the United States, so truly, if you are feeling helpless and hopeless, I mean, hopeless, get help get help seek out I mean, Tiffany and I are coaches, we are not therapists we are not,
Tiffany Mattick:
I think it's a beautiful combination not to have both.
Michael Kithcart:
Yes, it is,
Tiffany Mattick:
I'm a huge advocate to have one in each hand.
Michael Kithcart:
We need all the help that we can get, because, you know, to be able to have a higher level of understanding so that we can move through things, things that may be worth we were staying stuck in in the past, by having a higher level of awareness of the why and how it doesn't need to stay that way, can can help us also move through our stresses, we want to always maintain some type of hope there's always opportunity. And if you aren't feeling that way, it would really be great to go and talk to some- a professional on that, you know, there's all these tests and stuff in the book, I found it fascinating. But I'm, I'm I don't want to go into great detail on it. But if you are like a research person, and you're interested, like the things that they have tested to show how you know what happens to a person and animals when they feel like this goal is possibly attainable to no longer attainable and how you completely give up. I mean, it's sad. And what we are trying to do is prevent that. Prevent that from happening. We don't want you to get to that point. So Tiffany, when you're talking with clients, Tell, tell share with us a little bit some of the things your go-to's on how you help people prevent burnout, how to bring them back if they're feeling like they've already reached that point.
Tiffany Mattick:
Yeah, one of the number one things that people I've surveyed my clients and the things that they should call out is the things they need help with are overwhelmed. Self doubt and confidence. So I think it's very common. We talked about this earlier in this conversation about people to get up in their head. You know, I have a client right now who I've been working with, we're probably on our 10th session and she is convinced that she doesn't... She can't see her path forward, but yet It's just her mind, like, I can see her path, I can see everything as clear as a bell. But because she is so noisy in the mind, she cannot, it's paralyzing. And so I'm always pushing for quieting the mind, whatever it takes for you to just quiet the mind and be more present. To me that conversation, we have to practice all the time, I'm just trying to come back to our bodies, and come back down into we have this natural to wish intuition in our bodies, like our bodies are telling us the answers. But we're so busy in the mind, we can't hear what our own bodies are saying. So you know, coming back to the breath, and just trusting your body and listening to that I'm always working on grounding, you know, grounding you back down to the earth, you know, get outside, get your feet into nature, like connect with the earth instead of this, like this, this mind that I mean, our minds are just so busy and full, and we're worrying, you know, worrying is doing absolutely nothing for any of us right now. So for me, it's just giving them tools to come back to themselves back to their own knowing. And then this ability to have a voice to ask for what you need to set boundaries, I feel like that, knowing that they're already worthy. And they can have, they can take the time back for themselves, they can do what they need to do to recover and restore. So it's just constant. I mean, we're all working on it, I don't have it perfect. You don't have it perfect. We never will. It's a journey. But it's like getting these tools into their cycle and into the days so that they can just be more centered and more not quite so noisy in the brain.
Michael Kithcart:
Yeah, one of the things that I work with clients on around this is, and I'll add to that, because your points are all great, Tiffany, is really getting to identify what got people to that point. So where we are in this moment in time, like, how did we get there? What were some of the, you know, the highlights that where you could notice that there was a shift by going through that process that can really help people identify things that maybe they weren't paying attention to, because they're just so focused on how they're feeling right now and what their life is like now in this moment, but by going back and being able to identify, they can start going, Oh, okay, well, that's something I can do about or no wonder, no wonder I'm feeling this way. And sometimes it gives people permission to, to take a step back. Or what it does is it identifies things that they want to change in their life. And then we can talk about like, what would be one thing, you know, that you could do that will start making that that shift. To your point about the the mind you both you and I have been doing a lot of work on subconscious thought, and just the power of our minds continues to blow me away.
Tiffany Mattick:
It's crazy.
Michael Kithcart:
And for people who are thinking that, oh, you know, it just changing, my thinking isn't gonna change anything? It's gonna change everything.
Tiffany Mattick:
That's, that's another whole new episode.
Michael Kithcart:
Everything you and I are both witness to that, like, and here's like, one thing that I'm just gonna say about that is like, even if you don't believe it, in the moment, if you constantly tell yourself something, either, you're being kinder to yourself, you're you're creating a vision of what you want your life to be, if you consistently keep saying it, you will change like you will change, you will really start to believe it. And you will notice the change around you. It is it's a whole other podcast.
Tiffany Mattick:
It is. Um, what one quick thing, though, I want to add to what you just said, because we haven't used the term self compassion. So there's a whole series of work around our body of work around self compassion. One of the exercises I do with my group coaching clients is we take a picture of ourselves when we were like five, or you know, between the ages of five and 10. And we notice what we're saying to ourselves in our mind, and would we say it to this little tiny person in the, in the picture that we're holding, and it gives you a new level of like compassion and empathy and just you would never say all that noise in your brain. You would never say out loud to someone you loved. So just noticing, I mean, just taking a minute to think or fine, like I used to have it as my wallpaper. Go find her, you know, go get her out and get a picture of her and just think about what would you say to her? If she was getting ready for a pandemic? How would you coach her, you know, help her get through this and it's just a completely different perspective than the self loathing the beating up the not good enough, I can't do this right, you know, there's just so much noise and coming back to just remembering kind of where we all started. And there's all inside all of us is just this little girl that wants to be seen and heard,
Michael Kithcart:
We want to be seen, we want to be heard, we want to know that we matter.
Tiffany Mattick:
And that we belong. And that's why that social connection was so important.
Michael Kithcart:
Yes, yes. So Tiffany, thank you for being willing to just have this conversation today, we could talk about it in so much more detail, I want to, I want you to share with people that you do have a community on Facebook that they can join to really have some of that connection. So tell people about The Crew.
Tiffany Mattick:
So I have a place on Facebook, which is a free membership community called The Crew and I would call it a soft place for women to land. It is a place that we work on personal growth, and we work on what does it mean to really what I care about most is just being you and really showing up fully as yourself at work and at home. And so everything we do in The Crew is supportive. It's a community of women that are working on personal growth, we're being vulnerable, we're being authentic. It's just like where you get to come and practice this idea of being yourself without all the noise. And so I definitely invite women that feel like that could be something beneficial to them to join. So it's if you go to www.tiffanymattick.com/thecrew, ou can sign up there's so many free resources. I do a web nar every month. I'm doing grat tude in November and presence i December. So welcome to join me I would love to have you there nd you'll link up the I know you ll share the link Michael in your show notes.
Michael Kithcart:
Yes, I absolutely will. So Tiffany Always a pleasure talking with you. Everybody just got a little insight to our our usual conversations.
Tiffany Mattick:
Thank you for having me. And just I'm so grateful for the coaching you know, we just finished you and I, 12 months of or not 12 months, 12 weeks of coaching, and it was life changing for me. So thank you for being such a supportive coach and friend and for inviting me into this space. It's a really important conversation.
Michael Kithcart:
Thank you. Well, you're a great co host on this one. So thanks. And hey, before you go today, if you like this podcast on burnout, I'm telling you, you are going to love the free masterclass that I'm offering later this month on The Secrets of the World's Most Successful People. You know, it turns out that there are only a few things that they do differently and consistently that contributes to their ongoing success. And guess what? They do it by leading more fulfilling lives and not burning out. So check out this free masterclass because I'm going to share with you what those differences are. It's based on research. I didn't make it up: why it's different and how you can start incorporating the secrets in your life to get better results with less frustration and fatigue. Check out the November masterclasses dates by clicking on the link in the show notes or by going to www.michaelwkithcart.com/masterclass
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