Hello, I'm Michael Kithcart. I'm a high performance business coach and entrepreneur who helps fatigued achievers move from stuck to unstoppable. Welcome to the Champions of RISK podcast where we examine the many aspects of risk. So we can all face uncertainty with more courage, string humor together, you know in work environments, large and small culture matters. And it gets talked about a lot from toxic cultures to Best Places to Work, the ecosystem in which we spend most of our time influences attitude, output, satisfaction and morale. So today we are going to talk about leadership's role and responsibility in designing better places to work. I think we could also call this a recorded session of two leadership geeks talking amongst themselves today. So my my partner in crime on this one is our is our guest this week, Eric Harkins, he is the president and founder of GKG Search & Consulting. It's a Minneapolis based consulting firm that helps organizations get talent, keep talent and grow talent. He is a motivational speaker, consultant, executive coach and an expert in helping companies create a culture high performers want to be a part of. He's also the author of Great Leaders Make Sure Monday Morning Doesn't Suck. This is going to be a fun conversation. Welcome to the Champions of Risk podcast, Eric.

Hey, good morning. Really excited to be joining you. And thanks for having me on. As your guest!

I don't think we're gonna have a shortage of topics to talk about. But let's give people a sense of your perspective, because you spent 25 years in corporate leadership roles, mostly in HR. So tell us a little bit about that, and how that was part of the motivation of writing your book.

Yeah, you know, I had this kind of crazy journey. It wasn't by design, I like to joke and say, basically, I got my ass kicked through corporate America for 25 years, and really had this cool set of experiences, again, not by design, but I started my career with Target Corporation as an intern, when I was in college and started working in their management training program right out of school and, you know, held several roles there went to another, you know, fortune 500 retailer was a store manager, went back to target after that experience, and then made this shift in the human resources and kind of bounced in and out between, you know, you name it, I mean, I have been lucky enough to work in lots of different environments from you know, fortune 10, fortune 500, privately held, PE backed, tech, healthcare, CPG, but a lot of retail, and a lot of HR. And in the book I talk about, you know, the title is sort of this look back on 25 years of saying, you know, I was really lucky because I worked for some great leaders. And I was even luckier because I worked for some really bad leaders. And what were the things that these great leaders did that made me or others look forward to come into work. And so, you know, we're having a lot of fun with the title, Great Leaders Make Sure Monday Morning Doesn't Suck. And I've always said, Listen, if you lead people at the end of the day, that's really your only job. Your only job is to make sure that Monday morning doesn't suck. And so we're gonna have a lot of fun talking about that today.

Yes, and it is so true to right. It's like, there's that dreaded Monday, we've all been in that place where you know, people walk in, you can tell by their strut, their demeanor, just like what kind of energy level they're bringing into the workplace a little bit harder to tell right now, because so many of us are still, you know, working remotely, and everything, but what is it? What is it about Mondays that so many people dread?

Yeah, you know, the book starts with this story. So in my last corporate experience, I was the chief administrative officer for a large retailer based out of North Carolina, and we shared an office with a bank. And I got on the elevator in the morning, and they were on the two floors above us. There were two people on there. And their exchange was Good morning. Good morning, how you doing? Good. How are you doing? Good, except that it's Monday. And the other person said, Yeah, except that it's Monday. And they I got off, and I just died. And I say in the book, you know, it just it makes me sad. And at the end of the day, I'm gonna guess I don't know their names. I don't know what their positions were. But I would bet you lunch that they weren't very fond of their leader. And their leader wasn't somebody that created a culture that they wanted to be a part of. And I know we'll talk more about this, but whether they're a high performer or not, but when I talked about creating a culture high performers want to be a part of that word is really intentional. Because so many, so many companies underestimate and don't believe or spend time thinking about, you will never create a culture that high performers want to be a part of. If you let underperformers work in your organization, it's just not possible.

So true. I could not agree with you more, have experienced it myself, and have led teams who will tell you that. Yeah, I mean, the team will tell you, they don't want to be around people who don't want to be there.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, to answer your earlier question, because because I, you know, I love to tell stories. But I actually believe that that Monday morning stomach ache is because of one of three things. You're a high performer, and your company hasn't acknowledged that yet. You're a low performer, and your boss hasn't told you that yet. Or you're kind of stuck in the middle looking for direction, and nobody's given it to you. And at the end of the day, I think it's one of those three things.

Yeah. Yep. I that's so true. And we're gonna dig into, you know, what prevents people what prevents leaders from from sharing that that information, I do want to just set the context to because you did spend a lot of your time in HR. And when we talk about human resources, sometimes the human element of Human Resources escapes the department. And we all can think of like, people who've been super helpful to us in HR, and when we maybe haven't had the best experience of that. So from your perspective, why is it that sometimes HR does get a bum rap? And what do you think, as a whole, right, like, as a generalization? Yeah, what are some changes that HR could be doing, as we continue to evolve our work environments?

Yeah, it's such a fun conversation to have. And, you know, I joke about it, I did spend over 20 of my 25 years in corporate America and HR roles, and, and, you know, always was always frustrated and had a goal that I didn't want HR to be viewed as the internal affairs department in an organization. Nobody really knows what we're doing. You hate it, when we're around, you think we're only there to catch you doing something wrong. And unfortunately, in a lot of companies, that is the role that HR plays. And I do think that there are some some leaders in HR who do see that as their role. I actually had a conversation with a leader who I worked for at one point in my career, and I said exactly what I just did, I don't want us to be the internal third. And my leaders opinion was that's exactly what we're here to do. And, and I knew, I knew that the end was going to be near when, when we had that conversation. So that's part of it. You know, GKG Search & Consulting in the elevator pitch is really simple. About 15 years ago, I was having a conversation with a leader, and anyone in HR listening to this has had this conversation. I don't really understand what you do anyway. I mean, I know you pay people, but what what else do you do? And so I came up with Listen, there's three things that we're here to help the organization with getting talent, keeping talent, and growing talent. And I made this commitment to this leader that if I can't easily show you, or you can't easily see, as a leader, that what we're doing is helping the company get keep or grow, we won't do it, because it won't be worth our time. And it was a really simple kind of hallway conversation. But I ended up using that for years. And, you know, anyone who's, you know, worked for me, or with me and an HR team that I've, you know, been lucky enough to lead. That's always been my kind of backdrop is, hey, we're here to get keep grow. So to answer your question, specifically, if you're in HR, and you're wondering, you know, hey, am I am I that accelerator for the organization? You know, that that's the difference? Do you clear roadblocks? Do you see your role as we're here to accelerate and unless it's illegal, unethical or not aligned with the values? Before I say, No, let's figure out if there's a way we can make this happen. Because if it's going to be good for the business, then we can probably be good for the business. But I can't tell you how, or then we can probably figure it out. But I can't tell you how many times I had a conversation and we fell back on a decision we've made eight years earlier, that we're still holding on to is the reason we can't do it today. And it's like, what No, I mean, I think my personal opinion is the HR leaders need to be the greatest thought leaders in the organization. And unfortunately, a lot of times there's a lot of folks who are black and white and that's the disconnect. Well, you know, we have a policy great, you know, my goal is to work in an organization that doesn't have an employee handbook, because you just use common sense. And I get it, there's a reason you need some policies and procedures, clearly. But let's just have common sense and figure out what's right for the business. So, you know, just some of the some of the crazy experiences I've had along the way.

Yes, well, and I like it too. Because when we were talking earlier, too, like your background is a lot in the HR without being an HR expert. Right. And then my corporate leadership experiences always been in sales, and, or an operations in in some other areas. So this this common thread, though, it's like, it doesn't even matter. We're just talking really, at the end of the day, about being good, effective leaders that people want in their organization.

Yeah. You know, and lighten up a little bit in some cases, right? I mean, one of the chapters in my book is Swearing at Work, Who Fucking Cares? And, you know, my biggest pet peeve, or the thing that frustrated me the most throughout my career is when I would walk into a room filled with leaders. And somebody would make that comment along the lines of, oh, HR's here, oh, I'm not going to tell that joke anymore. Oh, Eric's here, and I would usually sometimes for soft value, say something like, oh, what the fuck are you guys talking about? Just to defuse that tension. But it's like, what kind of leader are you when HR is not there, like, that, that's what I what I talk about in the book is be who you are, right? Be real and just be genuine. I mean, people know what fake is and fake doesn't work for leaders. And, and the good authentic leaders are just genuine. And when they say something, you know, they really mean it. And so, that has always been and I can tell you, you know, anyone who's even touched the HR, you know, environment throughout their career has been frustrated, probably by that kind of interaction. And I had a mentor early on, who gave me some of the best advice I've ever had. And I was in my 20s. So it didn't really make sense to me, and I look back on it now. And I'm like, wow, that was so right. And he said, Eric, if you're effective as an HR leader, and you walk into a room with nine people, three of them should be glad to see you. Three of them should be indifferent. And three of them should say should say, Oh, shit, Eric's here. And the important thing to measure if you're doing your job well is that the next week, when you walk into that same room with the same nine people, you're going to get the same three reactions from different people. And it didn't really make sense to me. And now I'm like, holy crap, is that right? That it isn't a popularity contest, that it is about having the company's best interest in mind. And it is about having the courage to call out bad leaders and bad behavior, and not turn a blind eye to it. And you know, I had a situation once in my career, where as the outcome, I said, Listen, it's really important to realize and understand in HR that you cannot get so close to the person you support that you forget about the position you hold. And there's a big difference between those two, that doesn't mean you can't have an awesome relationship with the business leader. But But your responsibility is bigger than that relationship. And you have to have the courage to be able to have some really uncomfortable conversations.

So I want to talk about this for a second, because I agree with you, and and one of the things that I would struggle with is when I hear someone in a leadership role, process that as an excuse. So then the conversation to the team member is something along the lines of, well, this is a corporate dictate, you know, it's out of my hands. So it's like it absolves them of responsibility. And that's not what you're talking about at all.

It's not in fact, you have hit probably, if I could pick one conversation I have most frequently with my clients as a consultant. It's that one. And so the spirit of the book is a tool that I developed called LEAD. And we can go into as much detail as you want, but but I won't read all of them. But there are eight things leadership behaviors. And LEAD stands for leadership expectations and development. It's my version of hey, here's a tool you should use to assess your leaders. And it's simple questions. Do they do these things or not? The first one is do your leaders create a culture high performers want to be a part of? Do your leaders bring energy and enthusiasm to work every day and I won't read them off But there's one that the bullet is, do your leaders support the direction of the company with no hidden agendas? And it is the number one blocker for companies that I've worked for, or that I've consulted with. And most companies don't even realize it. Because what you just said is, is that bullet point, the sub bullet, or the definition of that is, when company programs and initiatives get communicated, are they communicated as we or they and I let that hang for a second, and I and there's this lightbulb, oh, shit moment with the CEO that I'm talking to. Because it doesn't mean to your point, it's not necessarily malicious or intentional, I'm going to destroy this company. But it's, hey, we just had a meeting. And does that leader have the maturity and professionalism to open the door to that conference room and sell that with enthusiasm and energy as if it's the greatest thing they've ever heard? Or is it easy to take the well, we just had a meeting with Eric, and I guess I'm supposed to tell you guys about this new program that he's decided we're rolling out, boy, those are two totally different things. And it immediately builds that wall between leaders and individual contributors. And that is a very important part, I agree with you 100% of something that gets in the way of companies realizing their fullest potential. Because they often don't realize how their leaders are cascading messages or engaging with their team.

Right? And when you're leading leaders to part of your responsibility is to make sure that they get on board, maybe it doesn't happen in that moment, right. But within 24 hours, I want to hear back from you, what your what message you're delivering, what are you struggling with, let's work on it first. Because if you don't buy in, the team isn't going to buy in, and it's so damaging.

And listen, it's okay, if you're a leader who doesn't support the direction of the company, it's okay, if you sat in that room. And in your mind, you're saying our CEO has lost their marbles. It's okay, if you're sitting there saying, I'm not buying what this company selling anymore. It's just not okay to stay

Right, thank you!.

You can't stay. And you have to do some self reflection to say, it's time for me to take my show on the road. Because I can stand up in front of my team with genuine support of what we're doing here. And be excited about it. That's okay. But then you gotta go. You don't get to stay.

Yes, yes. It's a it's a clear indicator. What I what I like about the book a lot is that you are able to synthesize some of the common experiences that you've had, as you mentioned, like across all different types of industries and the roles that you've had. And you basically boil it down to three key lessons, which turn into rules right. And I want to I want to go through each one of these because there's, there's lots of juiciness in each one. So your your first lesson is that it's it's okay to have fun.

And it's okay to have fun at work. It really is contrary to popular belief. It's okay to have fun at work.

And what do you think gets in the way? Because I think this is a piece of it. It sucks the fun out of work environments. What do you think gets in the way of leaders treating people like adults?

Yeah. I think that leaders get confused about how the results, how high performers get the results, or they get caught up in things that are just silly to get caught up in, right. And so in the book, I tell the story, like, why do you or I asked this question, why do you care? If a leader goes to a movie at two o'clock on a Tuesday? Like, why do you care? And I know what the answer is because I don't pay him to go to a movie. No bullshit, you pay them to get their job done. That's a yes or no question. Are they getting the work done? Question one a is are they a high performer who exceeds your expectations? And if it's Yes, yes, and yes. You know, in the in the book, I joke, you know, don't don't hate the game, hate the player. Right. And so, a leader is consumed with, you know, Billy, who, you know, was gone from one to two o'clock on Tuesday. Even though Billy is a high performer because it's just an outdated paradigm. Right? You know, what we are Monday through Friday, we are eight to 530 you take your lunch break, and it's just old paradigms that, you know, I hope we continue to break over time. But I think it just gets in the way of, you know, how you get the results has to be as important as the results that And if you have a high performer who can get results, and go to a movie at two o'clock on a Tuesday, thank you should celebrate that. Wow, I don't know how you do it. But I'm really glad you're on my team because you're a rock star. And thank you. Versus the other end of that spectrum of, you know, my top performing sales person, you know, hit 120% of their sales. Yeah, but they have 152% turnover in their organization. And nobody likes working with them. Because they're not a good leader. Yeah, but they're my top performing salesperson. Yeah, but and we'll get to Lesson number three. So I don't want to steal the thunder gonna make people wait here for a couple seconds. But there's a reason that that bad sales leader is leaving awake and in their way. So anyway,

Yes, yes, we are going to hold that because I do want to get to number three, I want to just add on that, because a lot of the environments I was in, in certain parts of my career, were around 100, being 100% commissioned sales teams. So now you have teams that really only earn what they bring in and was in an environment where the top leadership was like, you absolutely have to be in your desk by a certain time. There's no flexibility in here. Never mind. You have to entertain clients at night and on weekends and be at events and do things like that. So like these other things don't get taken into consideration. And what gets failed to realize is how those are just those are just little paper cuts, right, you know, that are just chipping away at the engagement of the high performers.

Yeah. Because that behavior is managing to the lowest performing person on the team. Yeah, right. Yes, the CEO who pre-COVID would walk the halls at 430, on a Friday was managing to the lowest performer on the team. And all that did was frustrate that high performer who said, You got to be kidding me. I knocked out eight projects this week. I'm three weeks ahead of the deadline. And you just walked around to check and see if I'm sitting in my desk or now and the world we live in, you know, are you still logged on to zoom at 448? On Friday? I've never understood that. But it's because less than number two, your performers don't quit voluntarily. And companies don't accept that, or believe that or understand that. But it is so true. And we all wish they did. But they don't.

Yes. And the other piece of that, right is that leaders aren't taught how to let people go well, and you highlight ways in your book, that people can do this, because that's an important. They're like, I have had so many conversations with leaders like I know, I need to let this person go. And I'm afraid to do it, not because of what the other person's doing. It's just like, they're not good at it. So it's just it's an opportunity to create a framework for them so they can move it forward. But what gets in the way?

Yeah, well, and I encourage anyone listening who's a leader, to your point, who's leading leaders, when you're interviewing one of my favorite questions to ask somebody, especially for more senior level leadership roles is, have you ever terminated somebody because they just weren't to fit in the organization? And if the answer is no, or if they struggle with that conversation, or it's not a natural one, I would encourage you to dig a little bit deeper. Because no, it's not a fun part of the job. I joke in the book, I said, Listen, I've never high fived, my wife after I terminated somebody, and then I say, okay, maybe a couple times. But really, it's not a fun thing to do. It's something you have to do, right? If you will not manage underperformance as a leader, then you are really doing a disservice to the top talent in your company.

Yes, people will say their their reason for not letting somebody go is because it's hard. It's like it shouldn't be easy to let somebody go,

no and and, you know, being a leader here, my philosophy on being a leader is that it's an awesome thing. Being a manager, being a leader, is a hell of a lot of fun. When you have a high performing team, you know when being a leader sup when you got a bunch of shitty performers who are dragging you down, and draining the energy from the rest of your high performers. And day after day after day, you drive home or now walk to your kitchen, and log off of zoom. And know that today's should have been the day I had that conversation. But that gut aches gonna go away overnight. It's going to come back because I'm avoiding the conversation. You can't do that as a leader. And you know one more thing on this topic this poor performers don't quit voluntarily. My favorite exercise to do with leaders when I'm consulting with them is I asked a leader. I want you to think about the last time one of your worst performing employees called you Or pre-COVID walked into your office and gave you their notice. You know what I'm out of here. Now I want you to think about the last time one of your high performers quit, and gave you their notice. And that's another oh shit moment where they get that look like, oh. And I'm a big believer that the worst thing that happens to a high performer is that more often than not, they find out how awesome they are, and how much you appreciated their work about 30 seconds after they give you their notice. So don't let your high performers find out they're your high performers, when they're giving you their notice, please. And it's just so common. And I don't understand why.

And some of that is just like there's not a process in place. I'm surprised at how often there isn't where it just naturally creates a cycle for feedback. So that on an ongoing basis for both people right in the room to give and receive on both sides. And I think when I love the question that you asked, you know, like, when was the last time you had a high performer walk out because to number two low performers won't leave, but guess what high performers will if you just keep them surrounded? Yeah, by the average Joe's? Yep. Okay, let's talk about number three, because this is super fun. Take it away. What's rule number three.

Lesson number three is assholes are assholes. They don't change. It always gets a little bit of a laugh. And you know, when I'm doing a presentation, it's kind of a fun thing to say. But it is so true. You know, this these three simple lessons, and I'm happy to kind of talk about the journey, how they became rules. But these three simple lessons, you know what, it's okay to have fun at work. Poor performers don't quit voluntarily. And assholes are assholes, they don't change. If you as a leadership team, in your company tomorrow have that conversation. Coupled with our only job is to make sure Monday morning doesn't suck. as funny as those things are. It's kind of edgy. Some people like to hear me say it or they like to say, but they're so real and where it really came to life. For me, it was in my last corporate experience. And I've been using these one liners and your only job as leaders make sure money minded stop for a decade, we were in an enviable position where we were hiring, literally almost an entirely new corporate headquarters because we had relocated the headquarters to a new city. And so I had the luxury of being able to interview every single person who was going to be a leader in the company. And I brought two sheets of paper with me to every interview, the lead principles, these eight things that we're going to expect all of our leaders to do. And these three lessons, and it would be this fun conversation. Hey, if you if you agree to show up like this, and we as a leadership team together, agree to have fun, not lead underperformers work here and not let assholes be leaders, I think we could build a really cool company. Let's do it. And we did it. We built an incredibly cool company. And about six months after we had hired most of the people who were going to work there, I got a text from a very senior level C suite executive who said, I need to talk to you about you know, this certain person, they are in serious violation of rule number three. And I know it sounds funny, because probably connecting the dots, but I didn't connect the dots because I didn't call them rules. And I go down to his office and I said, Hey, I want to hear the feedback. But what the heck is rule number three? And he looked me up. He said, What the hell are you talking about? It's your rule. Rule number three. Eric, you told me when you interviewed me, assholes are assholes. They don't change and that we as a team, we're not going to let any bad leaders be leaders here. Well, this person is not a bad leader. They're a really bad leader, and what are you going to do about it? Because I quit my job and came here because you told me I wouldn't have to work with people like that. And I sat back and had a moment, which was the greatest moment in my personal career, where I just said, holy shit, it worked. And I literally walked back to my office, and I ordered 150 mugs that just had one thing written on them. Rule number three. And then on a Monday morning, after we had addressed this issue, we did a desk wrap and everybody showed up with this mug on their desk, no explanation why no note explaining what it was all about what rule number three was, and it it then took off. Hey, what the heck's rule number three? Oh, you don't know what rule number three is. And now we no longer had to say that word. I know I get it. And everyone's comfortable using that word. But the concept of we only have great leaders here was the game changer for us. And people in leadership roles started self checking, drawing back to the lead principles. You know, one of the lead principles, build relationships at all levels of the organization, right. If you were that leader who knew everyone in their function and never even said hi to somebody outside of their own department, they started showing up different. Am I saying we or am I saying they when I'm communicating programs? Am I actually genuinely excited about being here. And it was the most powerful thing I've ever seen. And it showed me that that it is possible, it is possible to build a place where Monday morning doesn't suck. But as you've said, It's not easy, because you have to have honest assessments about your leaders and address quickly underperformers in your organization.

Yeah, the piece about number three, like so I love the impact that rule number three had on the organization, I feel like I would be remiss as a coach, not to kind of point out some differentiation because this is something else that I see in organizations. And so I agree with you that assholes are assholes, and they won't change on their own on their own right. And so what happens sometimes, that I've seen is that there will be a willingness to just either tolerate that behavior or discard the person and just say, like, you've got a problem you need to change, but aren't clear on what needs to change aren't working with them on how to change it aren't getting that leader the support that they need in order to change behaviors, because that doesn't just happen on its own. Yeah. And that is a disservice to the person being the jerk.

Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up. Because I think it's a very important conversation, because I agree with you. And I think where it gets either dismissed or ignored, or whatever word you want to use is because the company doesn't have something to tie that asshole-ism back to, right. Like, everybody asked me, what's your definition of an asshole. And I joke I said, I really don't have a definition, but I know who they are in every organization I've ever worked in. And the difference that I try to encourage leaders to think about is when you implement a tool like LEAD, and use it as it's written in my book, or come up with your own set. The important thing is that do your leaders understand how you expect them to show up, when you can sit with that leader and say, Hey, creating a culture high performers want to be a part of is something that's very important to us, you've lost three A players, and you have 142% turnover in your department. So let's just talk about that, right? building relationships at all levels of the organization, hey, you said you were going to go travel with Sally in q1, or now on today's day and age, you were gonna have you know, a zoom call and start meeting regularly with Sally, you haven't met with her yet, helped me understand how you think that's building relationships at all levels of the organization, one of the lead bullets has consistently deliver results. And that's a really easy one, hey, you know, you've missed your you've missed your numbers, three quarters in a row, three years in a row, three months in a row, etc. And so my point, in that, is that it's not personal. And it is about development. But But when you don't have that this is how we want you to show up set of expectations, then there isn't something to tie that behavior back to and that's where I think you're right, it can get easily dismissed as it's not worth the conversation. It's absolutely worth the conversation. But then it's up to the leader to decide if they can show up differently in some cases, or have the ability to be open to that feedback.

Right? Or at least to you know, are you coachable? Can you? You know, are you going to be willing to go go through it? So yeah, I think that's like a whole that could be its own podcast.

Well, and to bring it back to the, you know, earlier conversation about HR and hrs role. I mean, it is also about having the courage to have that tough conversation with that leader, I tell a story in the book that I was having that conversation with, with a leader and he said, You know, he was very offended, he did not like it one bit. He crossed his arms and said, How dare you? I have never had an HR person talk to me like this. And I said, well, and sorry that, you know, I said, I'm glad I can be the first but you should have heard this about 25 years ago. And it was just sarcastic enough as a response that he realized a couple of things. One, he don't do that, right. I mean, I'm not gonna put up with that. But also, hey, that's my role. This doesn't mean it's a personal attack. Let's talk about you know, how we want you show up as a leader, but that step that conversation and that's not just hrs responsibility, please, let's not pin that on HR. If you're a leader and you have a leader, don't call HR to have that conversation. That is your direct report, you need to sit with that person. Now, hopefully HR can help you prepare for that can provide some tools and resources, maybe even sit in the room with you to help you. But but that is your role as a leader is to have the courage to have those conversations to

And to be a part of if you are going to put them on a performance improvement plan that you're actively involved in that way

The amount of work that follows a performance improvement plan is underestimated. It is a big deal to set some expectations. Because you have to follow up with that to your point, right? You can't just Well, yeah, I gave him a performance improvement plan. Well, have you given them a weekly updated monthly update? What did you What did you let them know your role would be in helping them improve? So it's a very much two way street when you get to that stuff? Absolutely.

You already mentioned some of the the experiences that you've had. And one of the ones that you mentioned in the book that I really appreciate, as a longtime sales leader, is the story of when you became the interim chief sales officer. And so I'd like you to just tell us a little bit about what it was that you were willing to do to make the company better for its employees, and the hashtag moment?

Yeah, no, another, like, really, really cool, cool moment in my career. So I was at this same organization in Raleigh, and we were a national retailer 1100 locations in 47, states, about 6000, give or take 6000 employees. So it was a big operation. And like most retailers, you know, we have the traditional store, district regional structure. And, you know, initially when the CEO and I talked about me stepping into the interim role, you know, like any interim role, hey, you know, let's do it just for a couple months, but, you know, make sure that, you know, the team has somebody that they can report up to whatever, and then ended up being about a year, almost a year. And I just decided, you know, I'm going to try something different, I'm going to go to the other end of the spectrum, and I am not going to have one performance related conversation, because that's not my job, except for maybe with the three or four, you know, direct reports that I had. And I tell this story in the book that, you know, part of the the beauty and as you can imagine, I mean that, you know, the initial announcement wasn't received, you know, real well, in some areas. I mean, you know, I was an HR guy, and you know, I didn't, quote unquote, have any sales experience,

Who never sold that's

Never sold. And I joke about it, you know, in the book, I said, Listen, I've been the head of HR three times at three companies. And I don't know that much about HR either. And I joke about it, but it's really true. Because and this is a whole nother podcast, the difference between a subject matter expert and a leader, you know, your leader doesn't need to be us, if your chief sales officer is your best salesperson in the company, you got issues, you are in trouble. And that was my approach. So what I did was I said, Listen, I just need to go out and find out how people feel about working here. And so I went on this self proclaimed World Tour. And it was very important for me to just have honest, genuine and authentic conversations at the store, district and regional level, you know, I would ask every single employee I met, what's the worst part about working here? And nobody would answer the question in my first month. And then I started talking to the regional leaders and the regional vice presidents and just saying, hey, how can we let people know I actually want the answer. I know there's parts about working here that suck. What are they? And so it took time, but but as I say, in the book, if you ask the question, enough, people will eventually realize you, you want the answer. We had a major issue with connectivity Wi Fi throughout our stores. And I would walk into a store and literally they were connected to Starbucks Wi Fi, two doors down, because it was stronger than what we were giving them. We were a wireless retailer, and one of our you know, employees would have to be using, you know, Wi Fi from across the street. And I said, Well, this, this can't be right. And so the chapter of one of the title of one of the chapters is If It's Broke, Fix It. And I think I came up with three things. When I went out to the field. I said, Listen, I don't want to overcomplicate things. We're trying to do three things. We're trying to build a cool place with cool projects and cool people. And here's what that means to us. A cool place is somewhere that you like coming into work, right? You like the brand, the product, you know, it's a fun environment, cool projects is a place you can see yourself being out for a long time the work is engaging and rewarding. And cool people is our commitment that we won't let assholes be leaders. Now there was an element of you know, this guy from corporate coming in and saying something like that, that was you know, kind of fun, and it would get a reaction. But the point to the the the chapter in the book is if something is broke, you better fix it. And if you can't, at least tell the team why. And so it was 11 months of dozens and dozens and dozens of just, hey, if you could change one thing, what would it be? Hey, what's the worst part about working here? or calling it out and I tell this great story. That was just a really fun moment. I went into one store with this unbelievably high energy engaged store manager and his store was a disaster, not his fault. The carpet was stained. The sign was an old sign, his fixtures were broken, he needed paint, his back room needed to be redone. All of these things had been quote unquote, submitted to the corporate office. And so there were so many things that came out of that. And for anyone listening here was a big turning point, after every visit, it would be coupled with some really honest and direct conversations with my partners at the quote unquote, corporate office to say, hey, why, why does every single store complain about their Wi Fi? Why did the last eight stores I went into need paint. And so we started prioritizing and as a leadership team, we said, Hey, we can't do it all at once. Obviously, there's a real cost to this, our lowest hanging fruit is Wi Fi. Now we have to go fix it. And that following year, the number one project for the it function was enhancing and upgrading the connectivity in our stores. So we listened, we acted, but we were honest and genuine. I mean, I apologized a lot. I tell that story in the book. I mean, I said thank you a lot. And I apologized a lot. And I told this store manager, I'm sorry that we let you down. You deserve better than this. And thank you for not giving up on us. Because I don't know what brings you in here every day, because we've given you about 15 reasons to not be here. But thank you for not quitting on us. Let us fix this for you. But you better be genuine. And you better mean it when you say it. And you get things out of that we created the store Support Center instead of a corporate office. And I came up with this every store every time concept, which was every time one of our stores call somebody at our store Support Center and need something that is priority one period, not open for debate. And if you don't understand that your role, if you're working at the store Support Center is to make sure that our stores are enabled to maximize their potential everyday, then we need to help you understand what your role is. Because that is your role. And you have to be visible. You know, I'm a big believer, and it wasn't easy. I mean, I joke in the book, hey, anyone who thinks diamond medallion status on delta is cool. It isn't. But I was I was in stores every single day for a year, because that was my role. I was the chief sales officer to stores officer, whatever you want to call it. And so, you know, that's just that is a personal belief, right? I mean, that's just my personal opinion, I don't think you can be an effective field leader or lead a team. And now it's a little different travel starting to come back. But this last year has, you know, been an adjustment for everyone, but you need to be visible, whether that's on zoom, or physically in the location, or somehow face to face, whatever that means today, with your team, you can't manage from a spreadsheet.

So true,

Long story, but a fun one. And, and a really cool moment in my career too.

Regardless of the industry and the role that you had, in sharing that example. There's something that I think any person could take away and examine and ask themselves, are they doing that within their environment in the either the company that they own or in the, you know, in the leadership role that they have in a corporate environment? So you also have a phrase in your book, If You're Not Sure, You're Sure. What does that mean?

So it's it's one of my favorites. I mean, I think it's, I honestly think it's pretty good and practical, just kind of life advice, right? I mean, I think most of the decisions we make in our life aren't that hard. We just need to decide if we're going to make them or not. people genuinely know what the right thing to do is. But it's a really, really good conversation to have when you're talking about the talent in your organization. If you're not sure that person should get promoted, then you're sure if you're not sure, after five interviews, that they're the right person to hire, then you're probably Sure, right. If you're not sure we should change this program, then you're sure. And it's kind of a simple like note, let's just let's just pause. I use it primarily in talent related conversations. And you know, now on my search business, sometimes I have really candid conversations with my client that Listen, you know, you've interviewed this person nine times. I don't think they're the right person. No, no, no, I love them. I love them. Well, what else do you need to see that you haven't? There's clearly something that in nine interviews you haven't been able to assess whether they're the right person, I don't think they're the right person. And it helps them just ask that, oh, what is it that I'm looking for? Well, why am I not sure? And so it's just a very simple it's the back cover of the book. Again, let's not overcomplicate this right, let's keep it simple. If you're not sure, you're sure

Okay, I'm just gonna say if somebody is willing to interview with you nine times, I'll tell you they're not the right fit.

And and please self select yourself out. And that is a victory example, but and not necessarily with the same person but I agree with you, you know, let's not there's a whole This is a whole nother podcast how bad the candidate experiences right now and how bad companies make the interview process. But we do not have time to tackle that that animal but yes, please keep your interview processes fast and don't don't go dark on people. That's my guess right? That's my PSA for the day

I'm with you have some common courtesy and respect. So on both sides, but on both sides of that, as we are having this conversation in March of 2021. And companies are starting to bring back workers or decide on a hybrid or just calling it and saying, Hey, we're going to keep everybody remote. What What advice Are you giving to two leaders through what you just shared in your book, but as they are bringing people back? Because some things are different?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, we've never, you know, one of my favorite sayings is, you know, sometimes you have to build the plane in midair. And I don't think any of us have ever seen a bigger example of building something in mid air than this conversation right here. And it's so fluid. And it's so personal. I also strongly believe that people who pre COVID had a engaged leader that they enjoyed working for, and felt connected to have had a pretty decent transition to working remotely. And I think people who did not have an engaged leader, who they enjoyed working for have probably had a tougher transition to remote working. So there's kind of two parts to the conversation. One is a good leader is a good leader, a bad leader is a bad leader, whether you're doing it via zoom or in a conference room face to face. And so some of the concepts of how do I show up? What's my role? One of the really simple parts, though, the second part to that is, do you as a leader, take time to get to know your team at an individual enough level, that you understand what's important to them. And more important, in my personal opinion, and the miss for a lot of leaders is do you take time for your team to get to know you. And I talked about this really simple exercise in the book of get to know me exercise, it doesn't take long, but it's just hey, here's who I am as a person. And one of my favorite questions to ask a leader is do you care about your employees as much when they're not at work as when they are? And most leaders will say, Yeah, absolutely. And then the second question is, if I asked them that, would they say yes. And it's just a really simple like, what does that mean? And what I mean by that is, whether you're, you know, going back part time, whether some people will be staying remote, whether some people want to come back to the office full time, and you've got all angles of that conversation covered right now have the conversation? If you haven't, it sounds so simple. Hey, what's most important to you? What can I do to help? I know your son is taking on a new project at school? What can I do to make that as easy for you, as possible, show some genuineness and compassion to you know, we're all in a 24 seven world now. And I think part of what's already been different is, you know, we're all assessable all the time. And that's been happening for the last several years. But more so than ever, you know, whether you're in in Denver, and your office is based in New York, and you know, I've had so many conversations with companies saying, why didn't we use zoom before? Like, right? What, why did why did we have an archaic conference call that nobody could ever hear anyone who was remote, like this thing called zoom has been around for a while, or, you know, Google Meet or Teams, whatever. It's been a wonderful outcome, I think of COVID. If there is one, that the visibility and the playing field has been leveled. You can't hide behind the conference call while I was on but nobody heard me talking. And whether you were trying to hide behind it, or you were actually a high performer whose voice wasn't heard, because you were at a disadvantage, those days are gone. So as a leader, think about that. And as simple as maybe when we return my next meeting, I ask anyone who's worked with me, I probably have as many meetings with my teams, where we don't talk about work at all, as meetings where it's very action oriented. Here's the agenda. We need to get through some stuff. And that's a really good chat too. Hey, Do I do I balance that out? Do I ever just jump on a call with my team and just just talk? Hey, how's it goin? Uh, what did you want to talk about? Actually, nothing. Just checking in. How's things going? Hey, your son at a basketball game yesterday, right? How'd that go? This just really simple stuff, but it shows them that you care about them as much when they're at work, or when they're not at work is when they are. And the only people that won't like that conversation are your poor performers. Now high performers are going to love that. You don't need to check in on me. I know what I need to get done. Don't worry about it. It'll be on your desk tomorrow because I said it would. The poor performers are the ones that get uncomfortable with that conversation. So you know, another reason to think about lesson number two and take it very seriously.

Well, I encourage everyone to take a Hey, I really enjoyed it. Thank you, and a lot of fun. look at Eric's book, because it's, it's not - This is not a 00 page book, you break everything out super simple. It s a good resource, like put it get it on your bookshelf, pull it out every now and then se what which ones you're ticking off on and which ones yo have an opportunity to work on It's called Great Leaders Ma e Sure Monday Morning Doesn't Su k. It's a guide to building gr at workplace culture. Eric, thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast. If you're like most people you want this year to be better than last year, right? But maybe some things are getting in the way. Maybe you're not finding time in the day to work on your business or find that next career move. Maybe you say you're committed to doing things for you, but you let other things take priority. Or maybe you have a big goal you want to make happen, but you're finding it hard to take consistent, consistent steps forward. If any of those sound like you then check out Champion You Group Coaching each month. Other high achievers just like you meet virtually to learn new necessary ways to break down current barriers and put action and momentum behind their goals. If you're looking to get different results in business and in life, then discover how Champion You Group Coaching can support you in achieving your own version of an unstoppable 2021 click on the link in the show notes or go to www.michaelwkithcart.com for more information and to sign up.