Hey, everybody, we launched the Champions of RISK podcast in February, because we wanted to be able to have conversations about people who take risks in their lives so that through our stories, we could all build resilience and confidence, have some fun and humor and do that together. Little did we know a few short weeks later, we would all be faced with the COVID-19 pandemic. And so now even daily tasks can feel a little riskier than they did just a couple of months ago. So I've had a lot of conversations with people. And there seems to be this theme of, Hey, can we strive and thrive at the same time? And the good news is that we can, and we've got somebody with us today who is going to help us. She's a resiliency expert. And so we are just going to have a lot of fun. Today, I want to introduce you to Jenny Evans. She is a dear friend and a Minnesota native, but she is so much more than that, too. She is badass. She is funny, she is so brilliant. And she's a resiliency expert, she speaks all over the world. She's a renowned speaker, she's been on the TEDx stage, and she is a subject matter expert for Optum. And also The Big Know digital courses. She's an author, she has this great book that everybody should take a look at and read, and we'll put a link to it. It's called The Resiliency rEvolution. And so Jenny is going to take some time today and talk to us about what's going on with us, Jenny. Hello, welcome. And how are you doing?

So good to be with you, thank you so much for inviting me to be on your podcast. You know, I'm laughing as you're talking about all the stuff that I do. I'm like, that's all the stuff I used to do. Travel the world? Now I just like to travel in my living room. (laughing) So the question, How am I doing is, God it's a good question because every day is just so dang different lately. And I think all of us are sort of vacillating and oscillating between having fun and seeing this as an opportunity for creativity and disruption, and invention and a chance to do things differently in our lives. And then there are days where you're just like, I just want to eat my face off, I want to drink my face off, or I want to crawl in a hole or I want to be crabby. And it's kind of funny how quickly sometimes those things can change. But I also know that I have so much to be grateful for and that I'm very lucky and that there are a lot of people out there who are having some much bigger struggles and a much harder time than I am. So I'm just I'm feeling very grateful, honestly.

Yeah, that's such a great point that when there's nothing else that we can do, we can stop for a moment. What is going on with our minds and our bodies?

So a lot of it honestly has a chemical origin. So we've all been under a lot of stress. Some of it's been great stress. Some of it's been horrific stress, but all of it comes down to chemistry and there are these chemical changes that radically change our physical. So maybe some of you guys have noticed your sleep has been disrupted. Yeah, you are wanting to eat and drink different things, and energy levels, but it also changes our brain in so many really kind of crazy ways. But one of the biggest things that it does is it brings this primitive caveman brain front and center. And I like to call this part of our brain, Sneaky Pete. And Sneaky Pete is very animalistic and instinctive. And he's rude. And he's negative. And he's always looking for problems and why change is bad. And he's hardwired to honestly, like always be looking out for danger because this part of our brain's job is designed to protect us and to keep us safe. And we have so much more access to information than ever before. And so I kind of feel like at the beginning of this pandemic, Sneaky Pete was just like feasting at the fear buffet, 24-seven, which was just overloading our stress systems. I know for me, the first couple of weeks of this, I was trying to decide, okay, what's been more stressful, like transforming my business to virtual online in less than a week? Or when I divorced my husband and got a wife instead? I'm like, they were both pretty freakin stressful.

What did you do in this particular instance, when you had to massively change your business? And under a week, like..?

Yeah, well, let me first say that Not a single one of us is immune to stress like that stress response is going to happen, those chemical changes are going to happen. But what we can step in and control is then doing some things to change our chemistry back into an ideal state. So I'm gonna be honest, there was a for that, you know, week and a half to two weeks, I was not sleeping at all. And so I had to get super serious about my sleep game and my sleep strategies like, never been a great sleeper. And I've had a lot of strategies that I've used, those strategies were just not working. So two of the things that I did to really up my game was every night before bed, I would just do a brain dump. And I would get a notebook and pen and paper. And I would just write everything that was on my mind from like, the really big important things to the stupid inane things, and just start thinking about what are the things when I wake up, I'm going to start thinking about and I'm just going to put them all out on paper. And that was just really cathartic to like, literally write until my brain was like, it's empty. And then I started meditating before going to bed to just really stop my mind from being in that race-y state. The other thing that I did, was I started sort of cleaning up my nutrition before this whole thing happened. So you mentioned I moved to San Diego. It's been awesome. And I feel like every day is a vacation. But I've also been like eating and drinking, like every day of vacation. So a couple of weeks before this, I had started cleaning up my diet, and I had debated I'm like is the pandemic, was the best time to be cleaning up one's nutrition, but I've stuck with it and loved it because it has created this tiny locus of control. And I also think like the flip side of that, because we're such extremists as human beings that I would just be making it like Sneaky Pete's caveman brain would be rationalizing why it's okay to just eat total crap and drink more than usual. And so sleep and nutrition have helped to try to correct my chemistry. As I said, we can't stop stress from happening, but there's a lot we can do to change our chemistry and try to get Sneaky Pete out of the driver's seat.

Okay, so are you telling us that we can actually kind of build a resiliency muscle? Or what would you call it?

Oh for sure. I would say there's like an entire body full of muscles both big and strong that we can use to create resiliency. And let me say to you, like, here's how I define resiliency. So number one, it's a chemical event. It's not just psychological. Number two resiliency to me is training your body and your brain to recover from stress more quickly and more efficiently. So like I said, a lot of times, we can't stop it from happening, but we can train our body to like to transform our chemistry back to an ideal state. And then the third way I define resiliency is we can also actually raise our threshold for stress, just so that we can successfully handle a lot more before that stress response is triggered. And that goes from, you know, I like to give people a whole set of physiological tools. Let's first correct your chemistry because when we're stressed out, Sneaky Pete is in control, we don't even have access to our advanced brain where the cognitive psychological coping tools reside. So first, we have to correct our chemistry. Once we do that, then we can start using some psychological tools for resiliency.

Okay, I love that. So can we break that down a little bit? Can you help us with that chemistry piece? Because I don't think I'm alone. I are you're not alone. I know I feel this way to have there are some days where I just want to eat my face off and have a drink at three.

So you would wait till three o'clock? There was a day I think it was 2:30, I was drinking fireball whiskey and Diet Dr. Pepper and I was like, This is the greatest Corona cocktail, this is the only thing that we have on hand and I was like, I'm doing this it's 2:30 I don't care (laughing). The fact that you wait till four o'clock makes you a better, stronger person.

I have to play tricks on myself. So. So help us all with that chemistry, because if we can find a pause button, we can save ourselves a little bit.

Oh yeah. Okay, so one of the biggest chemical changes that happen during stress is the body releases cortisol. And cortisol does do a lot of good things about the stress response. But you guys that what the stress response is designed to do is fuel our bodies for either fighting or fleeing. And what those two things have in common. Is there a short burst of intense physical activity? Well, right now we're all trapped inside, we don't have access to a lot of the things. And so like cortisol is just being pumped out in these massive amounts. And we're not burning it off by getting any sort of physical activity, but a short burst of intense physical activity mimics the fight or flight response. And it burns off cortisol. And then it pumps out the bliss molecules, endorphins, which a morphine-like substance endocannabinoids. It's a cannabis-like substance, we get dopamine, just like these bliss molecules that like calm us back down, they neutralize all those negative side effects of cortisol. So one thing that I talked to people about is 30 to 60 seconds of intense physical activity. So do some burpees. Do some push-ups and do some squat jumps, like jump rope, but without the jump rope. It sounds too good to be true. But trust me, you guys, I'm a scientist, I pored over the research journals like that is how one of the ways that your body produces the bliss molecules. You know, from a nutrition perspective, cortisol makes us hungry for high-fat, high-sugar foods, because again, the fight or flight responses are our primitive hardwiring. In our ancestors, food was scarce, they did a lot of fighting, and they did a lot of fleeing. So cortisol did us all a favor by making us hungry for those fatty, crunchy, chewy, creamy, dreamy foods. So chemistry affects our nutrition choices. But on the flip side, a lot of our nutrition choices affect our levels of chemistry. So there's a ton of nutrition strategies that we can be used to just minimize, like, the last thing that we want to do is inadvertently be adding more stress to our system by our nutrition choices. Do you want an example of one?

Well, I would, I want to take a personal example. Because I know when I'm being reasonable that I will want sugar, and I'll eat it and I'll feel better, but I'll feel like I have a hangover the next day. And so that doesn't help me long term. But at the moment, I feel like it's gonna help me.

I'm always about finding the yes-and option, like how do we have our cake and eat it too? So it's natural that during stressful times, you are going to either want sweets or fat or like the trinity, the holy blessed combination of all of those things. You know, it's Sneaky Pete hates being told no, it hates being on a diet, like we're not hardwired to want to eat less. So a strategy that I like to use is okay if you're jonesing for some things sweet. Well, most sweet foods are what we call hypoglycemic, they spike our blood sugar, and then that spike creates stress. And then there's that crash, like you're talking about, like the next day, you just kind of feel hungover and disgusting. Well, one of the things that we can do to minimize that spike in that crash is to balance that high glycemic sweet food with a low glycemic food. And what a low glycemic food does, is it just instead of a spike in a crash, it gives us a gradual increase in blood glucose levels, and then a gradual decrease. So foods that are low glycemic contain fat, they contain fiber, and they contain protein. So Michael, like give me a specific example, when you talk about you want sugar, like what are your two of your go twos?

I would love ice cream.

Ice cream, let's just look at that. So ice cream, actually, depending on what kind you're using does have fat so it's not like the worst thing in the world is not pure sugar. But what you could do is say, Alright, I want ice cream, but instead of having like a ton of ice cream, I'm going to have a little bit of ice cream. I'm also going to put some almonds on top of that because almonds have fat, they have fiber and they have protein. They're low glycemic, and they kind of blunt that spike in that crash. Or you could say, I'm gonna maybe put some sliced bananas in there because bananas are more like moderate glycaemic. So there are combinations of things that you can have that will allow you to sort of like scratch that itch and get that comfort but minimize, like the negative consequences from a chemistry perspective.

That's great tips. Okay, so so far, I've learned that burpees are good for me, which I've never really fully understood. But okay, and I can have ice cream, just put almonds on it, this is great. You're giving a lot of great permissions.

Here's another little tip, instead of putting your ice cream in a big bowl, and if you only put one tiny scoop, our primitive caveman brain is like, What the What like, this looks like we're on a diet because you didn't fill the bowl, eat your ice cream from a wine glass instead. Because like one scoop fills that wine glass. And your primitive brain is like, Whoa, it's a full heaping serving. So that's like another little trick and strategy that I talked about in my book, I'm like, how do you create these optimal defaults, these little environmental changes that we use that nudge us into desired behaviors without having to use self-discipline and willpower? Because we're using all of our self-discipline and willpower, like just to get through like, what is now a normal day.

Yeah, it's so true, like right now having conversations about not trying to necessarily do things the same way that you were doing them before because all different factors are playing into someone's day with everyone at home right now. And like you're saying some different triggers, right? Talk to us a little bit more about that piece that it's like, what are things that you can focus on right now, that will make a difference, but aren't so massive, like a diet plan or anything like that, that just feels so big in general, and maybe feels lofty right now? We can benefit from little small, you know, step forward. What are some other ones that you would recommend?

Yeah. Okay. So change triggers the stress response, like we've all felt that massively, but even when it relates to like behavior change, if you decide like, Okay, I need some new habits in place. Even that kind of change triggers the stress response. And when that happens, Sneaky Pete hijacks our advanced brain, which is rational and logical and is all about willpower. Well, so Sneaky Pete hates change. So what we need to do is, we need to shrink the behavior change down so that it's so easy that a caveman could do it.

I see where you're going.

So, yeah. When we try to change too much, too soon, it freaks us out. Caveman's brain digs in his heels. And he's like, I am not getting on board with that program. So what we need to do is honestly, like, shrink that change down so easy, that we just feel like, that's so easy. It's ridiculous. Like, that's exactly the point. Because Sneaky Pete's not gonna push back on it if it's completely ridiculous. So like, now is not honestly the time to be making massive changes. It's more so like, what are one or two small, manageable, easy, doable things that I know, I can consistently do? So shrink it down. But secondly, I love this idea of figuring out what's an optimal default, just a tweak to your environment where you don't even have to use your self-discipline or willpower. So let's, let's just say that a lot of us are trapped at home right now. And it's just harder to move around or get a lot of exercise. So figuring out like, what's your workspace can you create a default where you have to stand and work instead of the default being sitting and working? So just like create yourself like a standing workstation, trying to think of defaults, like if focus and concentration are hard for you right now, because maybe you are at home and you've got other people in your work environment and you're trying to hold school and it's just it's so easy to be distracted of when you have to be focused and productive in whatever work environment you're working in. Try to remove as many distractions as you possibly can. So that you don't have to use your self-discipline and willpower to try to stay focused. So I mean, it's just it's so easy to not have to try so hard to try to make a change.

Yeah, those are great points. Tell us a little bit about the value of establishing some kind of routine. How could routine help build resilience?

Yeah, well, okay. First of all, Sneaky Pete loves habit and routine because habit and routine means comfort, safety, security, predictability, and control, we are creatures of habit. habit. And right now a lot of our habits have been disrupted. Like we're just like, What is going on? I mean, I do see when I talk about like disruption and innovation to a certain degree, this is kind of a nice time to be able to reflect and just say, you know, what, there has been so much change in disruption. I'm not in my familiar routine, what do I want my actual routine to be? What would be more helpful to me right now, and again, tempering that with not saying like, well, I'm going to start exercising seven days a week, and I'm going to get nine hours of sleep. And I'm, you know, like, Sneaky Pete is like, not doing it. Oh, creating a habit thoughtfully does create that sense of predictability and control, and reliability. And also, when we have those habits in place that we know is good for our chemistry and our physiology, that does make us more resilient, so that when there is a disruption to our habit and routine, we're better able to just be flexible, and just be like, oh, okay, well, yep, I'm feeling pretty resilient. I can handle this because I'm well-rested. I, you know, I have been taking care of my chemistry, just I'm better able to perform and respond.

Yeah, that's great. Thanks. I would love to talk to you a little bit, because about some of the life choices that you've made, where you felt like you've taken a big risk in life, because I do think that through this, you are leading by example, you've had these tools and resources for a long time, you have a degree in kinesiology, you're a physiology expert, right? And so could you share a time in your life when you felt like, you'd taken a big risk? And how did you determine to take it? And what was the outcome of it? Because we want I want to see, like, how you use your tools?

Yeah, um, I mean, it's funny, I've been thinking about this, like, I'm a huge risk taker. And, you know, some of it goes back to that whole, like nature versus nurture question, like some of us are more hardwired to want to take risks. Like, I will tell you, I'm always that friend. I've always been that friend, who says, You know what we should do? Like, I'm always the instigator comes up with like, these kooky ideas. And just like, let's do it. So I think I do think part of it is kind of like in my DNA. But when I think about, you know, I've taken a lot of risks in my life, like, as an entrepreneur, you're automatically signing up for a lot, of risk. Even, you know, personal decisions, like I said, like, I don't know, leaving a husband for a wife moving to San Diego. You know, I just think like, the one that's most salient to me right now is, so I travel and speak for a living, and, like, overnight, my calendar just evaporated. $0 coming in for the foreseeable future. So what do you do? I mean, like, immediately, I was like, Well, I'm gonna need to pivot my entire business model to being online. Well, like, what do I know about that? Nothing, but I can figure it out. I mean, I think that's the thing of, oftentimes, we get overwhelmed by risk and challenge because again, Sneaky Pete freaks out because it's so big. And there's like, all we see is this giant mountain and we're looking at the top. But I think if we just break it down into Okay, just what what is the next right thing that I need to do? What is the first objective that I need to tackle and just like, what's that first step? Make it doable for Sneaky Pete? You do that one thing and you're like, Okay, I got that accomplished. That wasn't as hard as I thought I was, okay, what's the next thing and as you're doing that, it's bolstering your confidence and sense of self and you're learning and you're expanding and you're, you know, broadening your capabilities. Another question that I like to ask myself is, what is the worst that could happen? Like, honestly, what is the worst thing that could happen? And when you really kind of go down, you're like, really nothing that tragic or horrible is honestly going to come from taking this risk or trying this new thing. And even if something like that, like how bad could it possibly be like I'm a survivor, I will always land on my feet Plus, it's just going to make great content for another speech or another book, you know, so a lot of it too is having this growth mindset is that chaos and fear and jumping in like cannonballing into the deep end is one of the best ways to like to learn and expand your capacity, like no discomfort, no growth, and I just I very much believe in a growth mindset. And the only way to grow at all is that we have to experience discomfort. It's a lot like a muscle, you don't grow a bicep by like, Oh, that's okay. Don't Don't do it. Like, you got to expose that baby to some hard times in some stress. And then when that you follow that with recovery, that's how we grow. And that's how we get stronger. And that's a metaphor that always comes to mind too: no discomfort, no growth. And I stand for growth and opportunity. So, yes, yeah, it's I it's part of my DNA, but part of it too, is I see it a kind of like, as a sense of crazy adventure. And this is gonna be a story. And it's, it's gonna get a little hairy at times, but it's gonna make a great story.

Well, and share- having people share their stories on what they deem, you know, risky and not risky. And so I love that, you know, on almost all measures, Jenny, you have a willingness to jump in and take risks we love, I want you to share a little bit more about this. Because when people can hear these stories, oftentimes they can find something in themselves, too, that will help them gain confidence to take a step forward toward things that feel risky to them. You mentioned that you completely overhauled your business in a matter of a week. And you and I talked about this the other week, and just amazing. Me, it's such a testament is possible. And so just, Can you share a little bit about, you know, how you did that? And what went into the determination that you had, I suspect, to just get it done and to get it done on a, you know, a crazy timeline?

Yeah, well, okay, so I was like, how am I going to take something life and, you know, kind of create the same sort of experience online and like, I have so much content? So I first sat down, and I was like, Okay, what do I want to talk about, like, what's relevant to these crazy stressful times that we're going through? And I had been building this resiliency Academy for leaders. And I had a lot of organizations that were interested in it and excited about it, but nobody had pulled the trigger on it. And I was like, having such a hard time selling this thing. And as I'm sitting on my desk, and I'm looking up, and I'm like, Okay, what, how do I want to design this content, and my eyes landed on this Resiliency Academy. And it was there were five different pieces of content for this Resiliency Academy. And I'm like, there are my five webinar series right there. So I quickly just like copied, and pasted, just did a little bit changed it. So I came up with the content. And then I'm like, Okay, I gotta get changed my website. So I went in and like, rejiggered my website, and then I put all that content too, into a PDF. And so what I did is I went through all of my current clients, potential clients, and past clients. And I made a list and I emailed them all individually. So this was probably like, 60 people to just let them know about, hey, right now, your employees, they're all like all over the place. And they're super stressed out. So how can you support them? So I sent them an email with a link to the website with the PDF download. Funny, Michael was like, so, who helped you redo the website? And I was like me, I'm the web designer. And you're like, well, who helped you from a marketing perspective? And I was like, me, I my marketing director of like, a lot of you get this, especially if you're running a business like you got to do everything yourself. And it's just like, okay, just figure it out and do the best you can. And here's the deal. Also, I was like, this doesn't have to be perfect. What's my minimum viable product here like, it's just got to be like, 85% done. So like, immediately, people were like, yes, we're going to do these webinar series. We want eight series, we want five we want one, and I was like, awesome. I'm selling things that don't exist yet. And it's funny because I have a friend who's also a speaker, and she's like, I don't that's not what I call that she's like, I call that getting paid to develop content. And I like, Oh, I call that selling stuff out of my ass that doesn't exist.

I love the honesty in it. And it's true. I love, though, you had clarity, I want to stress this piece to Jenny is like, I don't care if it took you five minutes to find it or a day and a half, like you, once you have that clarity, you were flying.

Oh, I've never flown that fast. In my entire life. I was like, This goes time this is happening. And so then I had to quickly figure out like, what technology do I even have. And thankfully, I've done a little bit of video stuff in the past, but my wife's also a photographer. So luckily, we've had this light setup and these cameras, and we were just madly, like ordering crap off of Amazon, because this is when it was like massive lockdown. So I was like, how are we going to get the technology, things that we need, then we got everything and stuff was not working because we didn't have the right cords. And we didn't even understand the receiver for the video, then I can't hear on the laptop. I mean, I was just drinking cortisol cocktails all day long. Like you guys, my wife was like, you were vibrating. Like, that's how much stress and adrenaline I had going at the time. And so then it was like figuring out the set design. We're in a 750-square-foot apartment, how are we going to do this, and it's a construction zone? So there's like banging and stuff going on. And then it was also like developing new slide decks and PDF downloads and videos for people to do online. I mean, it was just I'm feeling the cortisol, just talking about it. But um, this is the new reality. I just saw this as this is a beautiful opportunity. My content, like Lucky for Me has never been more relevant than right now and I just Guy Raz has this great podcast called How I Built This where he interviews, really successful entrepreneurs. And at the end of every episode, he asked every person the same question. What percentage of your success do you deem to be luck? And how much do you deem to be hard work, almost every person on the podcast and these are hugely successful people say, it was luck. It was timing, even though they work their butts off. And like, for, you know, years, if I've been listening to this podcast, I'm like, when the EFF am I gonna get lucky, you know, so strangely, I kind of see this horrible time and history as my lucky opportunity. Maybe, like this is the thing. That's the tipping point for me and my business. So I just saw this as, this could be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for you to grow and scale your business, both to like the ways that you've always desired, but also in ways and opportunities that you never even knew existed. So there was this sense of this could be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for me. And so I gotta go right now. And I will also say what's important for all of us is our community and mentoring. So I have this group, we call ourselves The Lady Ballz with a Z. It's three other female speakers and myself. And we have these Zoom calls once every month. And so while this was going on, I was on these calls with them. And they're like, Jenny, what, what is the deal? Like, you are so stressed out, you look like hell, you sound like hell, and I'm like, yeah, I'm not sleeping. I've never been so stressed out in my entire life. And they're like, you got to slow down, you got to take care of yourself. This is terrible. But I'm like, I ain't got time for that right now. The clock is ticking. The time is now. But I think you guys like we all have those moments in our lives where we are working faster and harder than we know we're capable of. And we know it's not healthy. But also knowing like, this isn't gonna last forever. But I also think it's very important to not fool ourselves and rationalize and then justify why we can be workaholics and neglect ourselves and neglect our families and like, literally let it go on forever. But I knew like just give me three weeks, and hopefully, I'll have my feet back underneath me and I'll be back to just like regular levels of stress instead of the insanity.

Thank you so much for sharing that story, Jenny, you are a champion of risk. And I love this, people need to hear your story. Because right now there's lots of talk about what can't happen and what people can't do, right? And we focused on that we're hardwired to go negative first, we have to break out of that consciously, to be positive. And to have an example. And I know you're not saying it, I'm not saying like, everybody's got to go do what Jenny did. Everybody like balls to the wall for the next three weeks, though, create something new, and at the same time, hearing from you that it is possible and that a measured time to make something big happen, that's super important to you, that's an opportunity to go take it, that message right now. It just needs to be heard loud, and often. So thank you for sharing that. It's just, you're such a great example of what is possible.

Well, and can I underline and highlight and bold and circle, the statement that you made around: for some people now is not the time to be putting pressure on yourself to create something new or be bold or take risks, now might not be the time for you to do that. And you should have compassion for yourself and not feel this pressure. Because I do think that that is a lot of the messaging that we're receiving, like now's the time to be your best self. And you know, like, for some people it is great. And for others of you. It's not great. You'll know it when it's when it's your time to leap. Or to just be like, now now's not that opportunity. Now's not that time.

Yes. And people will be able when they when they're listening to this. Paying attention to what's going on in the body; is like listening to this story, does it create stress, or does it create hope? And, and there's value in both of them. So again, I want to thank you for sharing that story. And Jenny, you've got so many great resources and messaging, I would like them to know how to find you. So where can we follow you?

Really where everything lives is my website, which is JennyEvans.com. So these resiliency webinars that I've been doing, I gotta say, like, I am kind of having a blast of how to keep things high energy, engaging, unusual, fun. So there's no stage, there's no problem. I'll come to you. Wherever you are, you know, there's my book, The Resiliency rEvolution, Your Stress Solution for Life - 6 Seconds at a Time. Again, it's 's all about how we shrink things down into micro strategies for transforming our chemistry and becoming more resilient. I also have a resiliency training tool, it's called Hit The Deck, which kind of mimics the fight or flight response in ways that we can get that short burst of intense physical activity that changes our chemistry. And you can do this anytime, anywhere. So you can do it in your house, in your living room, in your garage, or wherever you happen to be sequestered right now. You know, my website, I have articles, blogs, you can find me on all the social media channels that exist. I'm not hard to find. So I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to connect, and help you in any way, shape, or form that I can and I also do executive one on one coaching as well.

That's great. So thank you, Jenny. I appreciate you taking the time. It's always great to see you, whether it's on a screen or in person. And as you know, I said before you you just are a great champion of risk in my book. So thanks for being a guest on the podcast today and thanks to everyone who listened