Hello, I'm Michael Kithcart, creator of the Wynning Your Way framework and performance coach for sales leaders. Welcome to the Champions of RISK podcast where we examine the many aspects of risk so we can all face uncertainty with more courage and confidence together. Well, we are about to take risks on a whole new level today with my guest, Marc Wallert. 20 years ago, he was kidnapped with 20 other hostages by terrorists on a Philippine Island and held captive in the jungle for 140 days. Needless to say, he did survive. That is why he is with us today. The jungle did not destroy him. But once he returned to Germany, everyday life drove him to burnout. These two experiences turned him to better understand how he became resilient and moved through crises. And through that understanding, he now shares his jungle strategies as a speaker and consultant. In 2020, he was named the best professional speaker of the year at the Academy of the German Speakers Association and his book strong through crisis, the art of not losing your head is now available in English. Marc, welcome to the Champions of Risks podcast.

Thank you so much, Michael, for having me on your show. Glad to be here.

Just can't wait for you to share your amazing story with our listeners. So please, let's start with where were you. Why were you there? And what happened that led to your kidnapping?

Well, in the year 2000s, I was around about 27 years old by that time, I worked as a management consultant for PricewaterhouseCoopers and I was pretty stressed to put it straight forward. I was very successful, but super stressed as well. And I had to take some time off. And that's why my parents asked me, Hey, we go on a diving trip to Malaysia. Don't you want to join? I thought that was perfect. I joined them. I haven't hadn't seen them in a long time working abroad. So we spent such a wonderful peaceful diving vacation on a dream island, like a Robinson Crusoe island called Sipadan, and, on Easter Sunday 2000, we had three dives. We saw sea turtles, and colorful corals, everything was so so so beautiful. And my father even wanted to have a fourth dive. But I say, Come on, I'm here to relax. Let's take it easy. Have a sundowner and that's what we did. And yes, so it all started in the most peaceful moment when we watch the other divers slowly going on the water putting on our lambs and disappearing in the Pacific Ocean. This was the most peaceful moment, which suddenly turned into a nightmare.

Oh my goodness. Okay, so just so we're clarifying. You decided to stay and not do this dive. So some people were at your resort, right? Who decided to go do a deep dive? And in that moment of peacefulness, it was interrupted by what? What happened next?

Yeah, somebody screamed behind us. And there was noise. I turned around and I saw a lot of heavily armed men. Yeah, one of them had a bazooka on his shoulder and pointed straight at my head. So this was the first thing I saw. And I was puzzled. I was shocked. I didn't know at all what was going on. And my first idea was that they might want to rob us and then disappear again. But they quickly forced us along the beach. So me, my parents, 18 other people, and into small fisher boats, well, then we left the island and embarked on the open ocean without knowing who they are and where we were going.

Okay, so I think when we, we think about ourselves, and what would we do in a situation, you know, like that, or in any other harrowing kind of experience, you know, that that we think about; we might like to think that we would like to fight or we would, you know, say something that would change everything. But then reality kicks in. So in that moment, if you can remember, like, what were you- what were you doing, how were you taking this scene in?

Well, there were those thoughts of running away or well, fighting was not a big thought, because they were so heavily armed, there were so many 18 of them. Well, there was not a chance to fight. But I must say there was a very brave American couple. And the woman, she, she said, I can't swim. And she just let herself drop into the water on the way to the boat. And she would resist and say, I don't go on that boat, I can't swim. And it all looked like an execution. They had their guns pointing at her head. And I was sure at that moment that they would kill her and try to convince her to come to the boat. And, finally they they let her go with her husband, and they were left behind. So they succeeded. I must say, all the others were on the boats, and 21 hostages were on their way into the well into an adventure.

Yes, oh my goodness. Okay. So really, the people that were left behind were the people, the divers that took that fourth dive, right, and then this American couple, the rest of you are in boats. And where did they take you?

Well, that was a long ride, first of all, and perhaps just to give this idea of how that felt of being on the boat, my first idea was I sit there in between all those heavily armed men. And I had some regrets. Yes. Because I thought, well, Why us? And we should have done that night that was my first idea. So. But that doesn't work. I mean, I was getting more and more frustrated, the longer the journey took. So then there was a moment when that changed already. And that was when I thought, perhaps this makes sense in my life, for some reason, who knows? While I was on the boat, and I'll tell you what,

So you're on the boat? the reason for that is that before I went on that vacation, What was their purpose of capturing all of you? On the diving vacation, I was in a job situation where I was kind of getting closer to burnout like working very late hours, and I thought I can't go on like this. And I need to change something. I didn't have a clue and what which direction. And I was like, I'm open for an impulse for some inspiration by life. Yeah, that gives me a direction. And I had this moment where I thought, could it be that there is a hint, somehow, for some reason, that gives me a direction in life, I just had the idea. And that, at that moment, I thought, well, who knows? Perhaps there's something in it for me to learn. So that changed me a little bit attitude that I started embracing the challenge if you want, and not struggling with my faith anymore. And then it took 20 hours on the boat. So we went all the way from Malaysia to the Philippines and landed on a small island called [inaudible, and in the middle of the jungle e, and in the middle of the guerilla war, because our kind papers were Muslim rebels, and hey fight for an inde pendent Islamic State in south ern Philippines. And well, they took a long time until they agreed on what they want. But there was one thing for sure, one of the first words they said, even on the boat was CNN. They wanted to have media coverage on that of their kidnapping, they wanted to have international recognition. And so that was the first thing they wanted. And in the end, there were a lot of ideas of what they might want. And finally, they agreed on ransom money. Wow. Okay, so I probably got a little bit ahead there. But it does make you wonder like, what makes of all the places in the world and because they took you on such a long boat ride, right? You know, they kidnap you a Malaysian for a whole day. You're on this boat to get to the Philippines. And so you get to this place. How long did it take you before you realized where you were and how much were they communicating with you what information did you have to try and process?

Yeah, so they spoke very little English, like few words like CNN or kidnapping, things like that, single words. And so we kind of got an idea after one or two days that this is a kidnapping. They're a rebel group and we are now in the Philippines. And so it took about another 10 hours to land on the island until we reached our first destination, which was a camp in the middle of the jungle. And they call it headquarters. That's what they said. And I thought, like, okay, they're going to have kind of showers or something to eat, or perhaps a bed or something, there was nothing. So this was a small bamboo hut. And that's it. So that was very, very frustrating as well because we didn't eat or drink anything for a long time. So that's how it started.

Yeah. And so then all the people because you're in Malaysia, at a resort, so the people that were with you that were fellow hostages, were they from all over the world? And mean, how did you communicate amongst yourselves, when there probably were a handful of languages being spoken?

So we were 21 hostages from seven nations speaking eight languages. So that was already quite a challenge. And I had the big luck that I was, well, I spoke German, English, and French, and that covered most of the group, so I could interact with most of them. And that was, but other than that, there was a lot of confusion as well, because not everyone could speak with everyone.

Right. Now, because you could speak so many languages, then what kind of role did you have within the group?

For that reason, also, that I spoke a lot, a lot of languages, I was a time a little bit diplomat. So trying to, when there was a conflict to find to mediate a little bit between the two parties, or, another role was the role of a helper. So I had, with my mother being there, being almost sixty years old, she collapsed pretty early, mentally and physically. And this was a question about living or dying. So I had to support her in everyday life, that she's gonna survive that and this is a very strong role in a group if you can help others, I realized you help yourself the most mentally.

Yes, yes. Wow. That is, that's a powerful lesson. And when I'm when you are in situations that may feel so hopeless, right in the moment, or like, you, there's not a quick solution to something and you think, what in the world can I do? Your advice of like, well, you can help the others around you at that moment. Like there's always something right, something that can be done, even if it's not the final solution.

Exactly, Michael, and this is a very important point, you have to do something no matter what it is, you can help others feel better. No matter what you do, just don't try to wait until it's all over. And that's a wrong attitude. That's the attitude of a victim. If you wait for the external circumstances to improve, you are a victim of the external circumstances and you need to act yourself, you need to do something. What I did, for example, was, there was a point in time we had some wood, a hammer, and a saw. And then I just started fabricating a chair in the middle of the jungle. So yeah, it's really interesting. When we first sat on the chair, you know, sitting upright, leaning against something I can tell you, this was such a physical relief, I, it's strange, because usually we say okay, you get better backache from sitting on a chair, but I can tell you, no chair is not a solution, either. We had a bad ache because we were sitting on the floor on coconuts for the whole day. And so I had, first of all, of course, the chair was of great help, but I had the feeling I can do something, I can do something to improve my situation. And this is called self-efficacy which helps you to give you the feeling you're not a victim, you can do something about your situation.

That's amazing because you were in such an extreme situation that most people would say that you were a victim of what you know as being a hostage. So your ability to not even feel that way in that environment is incredible. And I'm curious how much interaction you had with the rebels. Like how did they treat you? How do they interact with all of you? Because 140 days is a long time.

Oh, definitely. And this was a very diverse group of characters. I mean, it's, it's like a little society. There were fanatic religious fighters, there were also children with guns, and there were fathers with all sorts of characters, all sorts of ages. And some of them could speak a little English, others not at all. So we realized, no matter how, we need to cooperate with them, because they have the strongest arguments in their hands, that's for sure. We cannot run away, we can't fight against them. And they said in the beginning, we are their instruments in their war. So the first idea was, okay, this is nothing personal, that's great. But if you think a little longer than you realize, okay, if you're an instrument of someone, then there is no relationship, he'll just use it if he needs it. And we had to build a relationship, a personal relationship with them, to kind of, avoid that they just use us, as when they threatened to behead us, for example, yeah, this was one of the threats, and we need to build some relations with them to make them not do this. Yeah. And in everyday life, it's important, we lived with them in the jungle. So if we needed to build a roof against the rain, we need a big knife. And if you want to have a big knife, yeah, then you need some trust. And to build up that trust, you need to build up some personal relationships. So we did establish some relationships with single persons just to have some support in everyday life and a little bit of goodwill.

Yes. This is just amazing when you think about the knife itself, right, like the trust that is required. So I'm curious, like, you're in the middle of nowhere. And it's not like you have communication. So what did they want? As this instrument? What did they want from you? Because you weren't, it's not like you were able to communicate with your embassies, your nations, your leaders, you know, or anything like that. What did they expect of you?

Well, from us, they only expected that we survive because we were money on legs if you puncture. And so but we, interestingly, there were a lot of journalists coming into the jungle. Imagine from all over the world, or the big, I'm not sure whether CNN was present there. But most other countries send some video teams inside the jungle, and they interviewed us. And they reported on our case when we were there. So this was the biggest media event in terms of kidnapping worldwide. And the advantage for us was, first of all, we were not forgotten, obviously, that also gave us a little bit of the feeling that we're not alone. And we did get some information about what's going on. So we knew negotiations are going on for getting us out of there. And we also received some food supplies after some time. And that also helped us to get in a little bit better conditions because until then, we had rice only to eat and very little so if you look at me now I'm quite a skinny person. And I had 20 kilos, a kilogram less by that time. So I was very, very, very skinny.

Wow.

Yeah.

Okay, and so how did you keep your mental state positive throughout this period? What are some things that you either did or said to yourself?

Well, what I imagined again, and again and again, is how my life is going to be once I'm a free man again, so I, I could feel it already. Imagining how I will be set free eventually, whenever that would be a return home to Germany, I see my brother, my eldest brother, give him a big hug. And I always thought, we're gonna have a beer together and nice, cool beer and toast to our reunion. And when we sit together, I'm going to tell him about all those crazy experiences that I had back there. Then in the jungle, and so I was already in the future for a moment. And that was so real for me because I could taste it, I could hear and see it feel it, that I had no doubt, I'm going to reach that. So this was my number one vision when it comes to my future. And that gave me a lot of strength. And yeah, that helped me in the darkest moments.

Yeah, for sure. And what was it that ultimately caused your release? What were those series of events you have a whole other journey that happens once you get home? So how did you get home Marc?

Well, let's first say how I did not get home. Because you would imagine that we would be released perhaps by a military attack, but we were almost killed by a military attack, by the way. So we were shot at by the Philippine military from like, very close, very close with artillery with everything with grenades exploding next to us. And this was not really for setting us free. This was just showing some strength against rebels, which was our life, so. And from that, we learned something. Because we were completely unprepared. We ran away, we didn't take water with us, we had nothing. We just, we thought they wouldn't do it. We were optimistic. At first, we thought they can't just shoot us. And well, they could. And when we ran away, we didn't even take water. We were running through the jungle for two days and a night and almost, some of us collapsed. Because they were thirsty, they were exhausted. And that was life-threatening. So we realized that optimism is just not enough. In such a situation, what you need to do is to face the risk, and not be too optimistic, positive thinking can kill, I learned, so our positive thinking or they can't attack us, almost costs our lives because we were not prepared. And since then, we all always had, a rice bag with a bottle of water in there. Just in case we need to run away again, this was our go bag, and we kept it in our hands at any moment, just in case we need to run again. And we did.

Okay, so I just want to be clear when the Philippine army started bombing you, that isn't what got you out of the camps.

Exactly.

Okay, so they did that. And you were gone for two days. And then what did you make your way back to the camp or how what happened?

Oh, we changed camp again. And again. So we had seven different areas where we lived. And the last day of my captivity also started, like we need to move there was a lot of shooting going on, next to us. And then and then took shelter in a small hut. And then there came some jeeps with soldiers from outside and like negotiators, and they had some ransom money with them. And then they were discussing who to let go. And I was one of the four last hostages, and they wanted to let the other three go and keep me there as the last one. So this was a real, so, amazing, this moment to see how they negotiate, my life more or less, because if I'm left behind alone, I'm not sure I would have survived that. So, to cut a long story short, finally, they took us all into those jeeps where there were deaths and wounded soldiers because there was a lot of fighting going on before that. And finally, so we all were driving to the military helicopter and left the island. And that was an amazing feeling. I can tell.

What was the time difference between when the first round of people was released? And then it was the last of the four of you?

Well, two months.

Oh, wow. Okay. So then the four, were the four of you able to leave and at that time, and the military helicopter took you where? And then, what happened? What was the series of events before you were back home in your place?

So the first thing is we landed in a place where there were real houses with stone, we hadn't seen that and four and a half months and I was on my first toilet seat. Yeah. (laughing) Sounds strange, but that was like sitting up there, flushing toilet, you could wash your hands with running water, warm or cold. And this was pretty amazing, I must say, then, well, there were like three days of coming home and a lot of media attention. So I gave a lot of interviews and at every point of time, like live interviews with CNN, BBC, a lot of that, and we also, well, the strange thing is that Gaddafi from Libya, yeah, he paid the ransom money because no other nation would probably pay as the US will never pay ransom money. So the same with the German government. So he said, Well, he can support the negotiations and pay the ransom money. That's what he did. However, I went there and said, Thank you, and then returned home to Germany. So that took like three days, all in all,

So you have to go to Libya.

Yes, I had to go to Libya.

And so you met Gaddafi?

The son, yeah, the son of Gaddafi who's still alive today.

How much did he pay?

It's said to be $1 million per hostage.

Okay. So you're, I mean, like, at that point, we're just talking about your life. We don't need to get into the political ramifications of all of that. It's very interesting that somebody who hasn't, who was charged many times over for killing other people in terrorist attacks, decided to save 20 people-

Well, this was his way back on the political stage. So after having been banned after the Lockerbie attack,, this was his attempt to be back on the political stage internationally.

Okay. And so you return home to Germany. What was the first thing that you did?

Well, even before going to Germany, my brother came to Libya, to fetch me, he came from Germany to Libya. And so interestingly, we did have that beer together. (laughing) He smuggled into this Muslim country, which you're not supposed to. It was a can of beer, it was really warm. It was not very tasty, but it was the most intense and nice, the nicest beer of my life definitely, with my brother. So it did happen. My vision came true.

Well, there you go, the power of visualization and the recognition that it doesn't always end up exactly the way you do visualize it. (laughing) So I hope that you've had other opportunities, and I have had a cold beer with your brother since then. So he came and got you. And then you returned, were your parents in the first round of hostage releases where they had they'd been released two months earlier?

A little later, like, three months later, and four months later, so yeah.

Okay, so you, you get back home, and then you reunite with your parents? Because it had been some time since you had seen them, correct?

Exactly. I went back first to my birthplace and to reunite with them too. There was, we didn't know whether we would meet again, alive. So that was pretty amazing. And then I went home. So home, meaning Luxenberg, by the time where I worked at Lyft. And yeah, I went back to my old life.

Okay, so how does one reengage from - Hey, I'm going off on holiday. Four and a half months later, Oh, yeah. I've been a hostage the whole time. And now you just show up for work one day? I mean, how do you even get your head wrapped around... This was my life in the last nearly five months. And now I have all these creature comforts again, What goes- I mean, how did you process all that, Marc?

Well, I didn't have so much- I didn't have many problems. The only thing was psychological that I dreamt a couple of times of the shooting like four or five times. And that went away very quickly after a few weeks, so I slept well. I was in a good condition. And I thought it would be just a clever step to go back and into an environment that I know. So it feels a little bit like a comfort zone. And I guess I forgot a little bit about how stressful my job was before I left because I explained a little more stress even after that. So I thought like going back to work would be like a clever thing to do. And I had to find out that wasn't just the case.

And once you realized that, what did you do?

Well, I needed to realize that, I needed first, five years later, as I went back to where I got a lot, a lot of stress, I worked very successfully in the business environment. So as a consultant a, as a leader, working with a lot of numbers, process optimization, all of that. So I know that so and I'm just not a guy who enjoys working with things. And but I needed to burn out first. So I had to complete burnout while working as a manager in the automotive industry. And then I realized, okay, I need to change something. And I realized, okay, working with numbers is something I can do, but it's just stressing me out. So I need to change something. And then only then I realized that I wondered, why was I so strong on the island. On- in, during, in the jungle? Because I survived something. There were like, deadlines, which almost cost my head, literally. And why then did I have burnout because of deadlines, which in the end are not dead? Yeah. And the answer was all about purpose. I had, being a hostage in the jungle, had a very clear vision, of what I want, I wanted to be free. Again, this was such a clear thing. I knew what I was fighting for. And from the first moment on, I knew this was something very important for me, it's about surviving. And at work, I sometimes wondered when working night shift after night shift after night shift, I sometimes wonder what the hell am I doing here. What for? And because personally, I don't care too much as a human, where the cars look like this or like that. I'm more concerned about how are the people around me. Are they successful? Are they happy? Are they are they healthy? And this was my concern in the jungle that gave me a lot of strength, taking care of my mother taking care of others, and helping others do something where I could see the human effect of my engagement. And so that was the moment when I finally decided to change my way in life to stop working with figures, which for other people may be fine, but not for me, and to start working with and for people. So I took up, the same- I was at a med tech company by that time. And then I jumped up the career ladder, and took a pretty high management position, leading other leaders and a great team. And that was all about trying to mobilize people who lost their legs with prostheses. So I was the manager of Orthopedic technology centers. And so people would come there with wheelchairs and wheelchairs, and they will pass by my office window, I see them coming without legs. And a little later, they walk up straight on their prosthesis, back into their lives. And I knew exactly what I'm working for. I'm working for them. And I'm working for my team to make them, Yeah, work in a good condition. So that was given me a lot of strength. And that worked well for five years very successfully.

Yeah. And what other changes did you notice in yourself once you've got aligned with your purpose?

Well, I had better contacts to my resilience strategies it made, I had a vision I had a clear vision, of what am I doing there and this only I had back in the jungle I didn't have in my previous jobs. There was no vision I just did what the boss wanted. Yeah. And, this is not enough. From a certain point on, I realized this is not enough. You, you need to have something that you fight for, from the bottom of your heart. And then you have more power, you are convinced that you're on the right track. You are more incurable and yeah, that gave me a lot of a lot of strength.

Yes. When did you realize that you had a message that you could share with others? I mean, the experience that you've had being held hostage is amazing. And, you know, I'm asking you a lot of questions about that experience, because so few people go through that. And you're here to tell us about it. But then when you got aligned with your purpose, and you could help the people around you in your work, that's one thing. But now you speak, you speak to hundreds and thousands of people, Marc, really sharing what you call your "jungle strategies". What was, now what would you say your purpose is?

So I had great five years a, as a manager, and then my tech company, and then there was a restructuring of the company. And my area of responsibility would have been divided into two areas of responsibility, I would have lost that particular job that I loved. And that was, for me a great opportunity because I thought, Okay, this, first of all, is a crisis. It was for me because I am the only one in my family who was earning money. I, my job was at risk. And I thought, like, okay, not a good idea. I have two small daughters. And then I thought, this is a great chance because I always wanted to do my thing and live to work an independently. And so I took that chance, really, and said, Okay, this is the time to start. And then I wondered, okay, what's what with, and I realized, when talking to friends of mine, that what I'm fascinated about is, is how a crisis in your life can influence it for the better. So, how to deal with it, how to stay resilient in tough times, but also how to grow from bad experiences. And because I consider myself to be a happy person, a successful person, but not, despite my difficult experiences, but thanks to my difficult experiences, and I think this is the case for most, or if not all people, and just to have this mindset to share that message. I thought this is something that I would love to do. And so my way of doing that is to give keynote speeches. And I left writing down, my personal experiences in my book, and also talk about that a lot.

Yes, yes. And you talk about jungle strategies. So in ways to help people be able to move through crisis and build resilience. What are some of those strategies you don't work with? Well, we'll promote the book and people will be able to buy the book - I'll put a link in the show notes. But just if somebody is listening right now, and just thinking like, yeah, I'm kind of going through a crisis right now, like, what was what would be a few key things, key things that you would direct them to?

Well, first of all, , don't struggle too long with your fate, but accept the situation as it is and start dealing with it. Look ahead. The second thing is when you are down, and we all are in difficult times, then it's all about doing something, don't wait until it's all over. But, get things done. So self-efficacy is very important also to feel not as a victim. And last but not least, I would say the most important is don't try to do all on your own. Team up with other people, use your network, and seek out help. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that.

Yeah. That, you know, that is applicable in anything, and we're talking in 2021 as people are coming out of the pandemic, and just thinking, you know, everyone's had to build resiliency, over the past year and a half, and it's a good muscle to build, because we're going to need to continue to go through it, you know, things will consider continuing to look a bit uncertain for some time. So, you are a big resiliency person, Marc, and certainly a testament to that. How do you build a muscle-like resilience?

Well, you build it by training. So really going through a crisis and applying your strengths builds up the muscle, so it's good to find out what is my strength. What can I do, is it optimism is it helping others is it - humor is a nice one as well and to be aware of what that is and apply it. And for me, looking back to the start of The pandemic, for example, that was another crisis in my life. Because I was there as a keynote speaker, I invested loads of money, I'm the only one who earns money in my family. And then last, in 2020, suddenly all stages closed, zero business. And so I knew, okay, I'm optimistic, it's, it's gonna work out, I've managed other things in my life, but don't be too optimistic. And I knew, okay, positive thinking can kill. I'm not the one as many other people who believe that Easter, it's all going to be over because when it gets warmer, you know, the virus will be away again, I thought, no no no. I've seen that before in the jungle. So I said, I need a plan B, you need to be prepared. And I immediately knew I need to build my stage in the digital world. So I set up my Digital Studio, immediately, the week after the lockdown. One month after the lockdown started, I had my first virtual keynote for a customer. And since then that has saved my financial existence and that of my family. So I want more experienced, okay, you need to be optimistic, but also deal with the risks and do something to work on the new situation. So me was very rewarding to see that, in fact, jangles strategies also helped me a lot. And in my business life.

Yes, absolutely. Well, now, as you know, as someone who visualizes, Marc, what are you looking forward to? in the future? What's that vision?

Well, first of all, I'm now happy that with being digital,, the next step for me is to go more international. So this is my next strategic step to give more, especially online speeches in the international community, that's one thing. And then in the back of my mind, there's a second topic, beyond resilience. And that is mindset work. And so there will be another book. And I'm, whenever I have a moment, where I don't work on something particular, that's coming out of my head automatically, this next topic, and I'm looking forward to working on that. And, and my very personal dream, and that of my family is to work independently from a location to be able to travel the world a little bit to live in different spaces and still to continue doing, following my passion as a keynote speaker for resilience.

Oh, that's fantastic. Well, we're gonna put all of your links in the show notes Marc, so people can follow you along. And when that mindset book comes out, because we do talk about that a lot on the Champions of RISK podcast, we will be sure to have you back as a guest. And in the meantime, please pick up Marc's book Strong Through Crisis: The Art of Not Losing Your Head, which was, originally came out in German, and now is also available in English. So Marc, thank you so much for being a guest and sharing your amazing, incredible story.

Thank you so much. It was a great pleasure with you, Michael, thank you so much.

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