Hello, I'm Michael Kithcart. I'm a performance coach for sales leaders and the creator of the Wynning Your Way framework. Welcome to the Champions of RISK Podcast, where we examine the many aspects of risks so that we can all face uncertainty with more courage, confidence, and humor together. So let me ask you when you were a kid, did the dolls and action figures that you played with represent your dreams? Did they even look like you? Because I know they didn't when I was playing with them. And my guest today is out to change that, plus a whole lot more with her new launch of Sports Bigs. We're going to talk about that. But before I even launch into that, I need to tell you about Pam Kosanke because I have never met anyone who could come up with more ideas in rapid succession. Or take a problem from start to finish and solve it in such a fast order that like it takes you minutes to even catch up with her- if not hours or days. It's true, I've seen it time and time again. So Pam is an award-winning leader, marketer, athlete, and professional EOS implementer. And for those nonentrepreneurs listening to the podcast that represents an entrepreneurial operating system, she has a deep experience at the corporate level, the small business level, and the entrepreneurial level, like she's got it covered. And throughout her life, Pam has continually proven her ability to lead teams to victory on every stage. I'm going to like somebody, start keeping count of how many sports analogies we're going to have in this conversation today because I think there's going to be a few. So let me just give you a rundown. As an athlete, Pam has captained, coached, and competed in two World Series, two World Cups, and two World Championships across three different sports. And that's not all. As a marketing professional, she's launched companies and products. She's increased market share, build brand awareness, and lead brand reinventions along with lots of other things. She's also a professional EOS implementer and the global marketing leader for EOS worldwide. She helps entrepreneurs get what they want from their businesses. Do you think maybe that's helped her launch this product? We're gonna find out today. And as an entrepreneur, let me tell you, she's recently launched Sports Bigs. As I mentioned, this is the world's first plush toy product focused on promoting women athletes and athletics. How do you not love this? I mean, like, this is amazing. She uses the likeness and voices of elite women athletes, and Sports Bigs fills a huge market need for female-centric sports toys, with a larger mission of helping women's sports achieve the exposure, respect, and sponsorship dollars that they deserve. Amen to that. Pam Kosanke Welcome to the Champions of RISK podcast.

Love it. Thank you. I should, I got to slip you a 20. That was a great intro.

Well, you make it easy for you.

Yeah.

And it's just this is, I'm been looking forward to this conversation kind of preface this is that I remember having this conversation with you, like two years ago, in an conference room, where you were talking about this concept. And then like, bam, here they are, live and in person. And I just, I think it's just a tribute to your ability to take the concept to result in rapid order. As I was sharing in the intro, you've done that in lots of different ways. So kudos to you.

(laughing) It was like magic, easy peasy.

(laughing) And so today, Pam is going to share her three-step process of creating a product. Just kidding, kidding. But we are going to learn lots from you today. So let's kick it off. Because you have a hat trick and participated in two championships in three different sports. So how have you managed to compete at such a high level? In so many things?

I'm kind of old, I've done it. Lots of time to do all the things, you know, I have a sense of like, I feel like I'm on The Amazing Race every single day and I have kind of a disease of wanting to do all the things and so I just have this like sense of like I truly want to accomplish everything I can accomplish in this lifetime. And I think that's kind of what fuels me but I you know, I grew up playing all the sports you know, I made my dad take me to my brother's baseball practices and pitch to me and, and hang out and you know, I played baseball up until, and I was a pitcher up until

Oh, wow

11 years old, and I was the pitcher with two earrings, you know, I had kind of shorter hair. So they didn't know I was a girl. And I played short and third. And I was kind of made to switch over to softball because we kind of ran out of space for me to play in the boys league. And I didn't want to do it at all. But I ended up and I think I didn't make the first team that I tried out for my dad just told me that, which is kind of hilarious. But I ended up you know, making another team and I ended up falling in love with the sport. It's an incredible, softball's an incredible sport. So I played softball, I played soccer, I played basketball, I had 12 varsity letters, and then almost had a 13th with football. But I just wanted to prove that I could kick and I did and the parent's night, right before the season started, I just slotted three in the uprights and walked off the field and said, thanks, I just wanted to show you I could do it.

Oh my god I love that

So I did run the risk of playing because I had a scholarship to Michigan, played softball at Michigan, four years best of my life, and third base, shortstop, you know, best coaching experience I've ever had and taught me a lot and was fortunate to have a good career there. And then I met some rugby players in Michigan, and they convinced me to consider rugby. And so when I was traveling in Australia, I met some rugby people. And they convinced me as well. So I was like, I just gotta try this. And so I started playing rugby in Chicago. And then off and running was on the national team for 12 years, two World Cups, sevens and fifteens had missed some World Cups due to a few surgeries. Rugby is not if you get injured, it's when (laughing). So and then, yeah, then afterward, I play, I started biking and swimming for Team USA and made the, you know, competed in a couple of World Championships in Denmark and Spain. So I know, we'll see what happens next. Pickleball is kind of, kind of on my mind.

I would be afraid to play pickleball with you (laughing). I like to win. I do. But I think your level of competitiveness- and ability, let's just call it I mean, let's acknowledge that too- is just so far superior. So, may you find the pickleball league that will challenge you.

Oh my my wife and I, Tracy has this dream of us winning the pickleball tournament by the end of the year. So I gotta get on it.

Oh, by the end of this year?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay. Okay. Well, we'll have you too on. You know, we'll take pictures of you with the trophy. And we'll talk all about that at a later date. So if you think about all of those, like, really those early years where you wanted to prove something you achieved it, you moved on, you tried it in a different sport? How has that carried through for you today?

I just think I kind of look at everything with a little bit of, kind of feel like it's a combination of grit and growth. Like grit, just feeling like I you know, I've always been told that, you know, that's the person that you put in the game to run through the brick wall. And I do have kind of that mentality of, if it feels hard or challenging, you know, I want to try it, you know, I want to take it on. And everything was I mean, especially in sports, it was a, there wasn't enough resources. There wasn't a team. We didn't have the right coaches, we didn't have the right facilities. And I just felt like I kept wanting to say, no, this is not good enough. This is not you know, it's not acceptable. And I kept wanting to prove the worth and value of being a female athlete. That we, we couldn't be like Mike, you know, Mike Jordan, for those of you- (laughing) Michael Jordan. Like anybody, yeah, maybe this audience doesn't always- You know, I don't know, some people may not know. But it was back then. We, everybody wanted to be like Mike, but girls couldn't, you know, and so I think there was a sense of just frustration, constant frustration. So it made me feel like nothing was enough. And I think there's part of that, that fueled it. And then just the side of the growth of saying, you know, I want to be bigger, better, stronger, faster, everything. I just want to be a better, more, you know, a person and contributor. So I think that's kind of how I just kept taking on more things because I could, my mom always said, I just want you to be the best you can be. And at first, I thought that was helpful. And now I see how that like, makes me kind of crazy, cuz I'm like, I could do that better. I could do that. I could go more and more and more and more. So I have to learn how to not be the best sometimes. But are we okay with not being the most?

Yeah, okay, so what do you suck at?

It's a great question. I suck at a lot of things. Sport-wise, I suck at volleyball. It never clicked with me. Track, I was fast up until I got injured but I generally was just not one of those speedy ones. What else do I suck at? It's a really good question.

You know what, Yeah, well, it's not like you want to focus there on that. But you know when there are so many things so so many things that you excel at not just good at but that you excel at that was just curious like, Can you cook? I mean...

Oh my god, I'm the worst cook ever.

Thank you.

Yeah, I horrible and I don't like cooking at all. I don't find joy in it and my family makes fun of me constantly. Like I tried to make a frozen pizza and screw that up. You know, it's like I do- I can't seem to get it right. And the only thing I can make is egg surprise and fake meat surprise. Which is, the surprise part is that we never know what it-

I think that's like, that's your saving grace. Right? You throw the word surprise at the end of anything that, any food thing? It would have to be acceptable.

Yeah, it's my trick, I guess.

Yeah. Okay, so you give it You gave us a kind of a landscape about your, your sports career? What about, your professional business career? How did that launch? And give us some of the key highlights.

Yeah. So it's funny, I always wanted to be a professional athlete. And so that kind of stopped me from you know, or, or it was always the thing in the back of my head that I thought I was still going to be forever. And sometimes I still think that you know, I'm going to be a pro athlete, I'm going to make the Olympics of something, you know, and it's just ridiculous. But I always have that mentality. So when I, came out of Michigan business school, I passed up a lot of jobs, type of career paths that other, my other colleagues were doing because I just was holding out to somehow figure out my professional path. So I kind of accidentally fell into advertising. I got recruited at Leo Burnett advertising in Chicago, and, you know, had the, they wanted me to start kind of right away. And I somehow convinced them that I would, I graduated in like April or May, and I said, I'll start in January of the following year. But I don't know, back then somehow, maybe the .com boom was kind of short-circuiting the supply market, supply for kids like me, but I negotiated it and I got to travel and do some things. But, I landed Leo Burnett Chicago and ended up having a 12-year career path there. It was phenomenal, learning how to build brands, and really about what marketing advertising was all about, kind of in the big leagues, and learning from some just unbelievably incredibly gifted and smart people. And big budgets. And then when I got, actually ended my career on a concussion in Dubai playing, I don't even know what, I was on the national team, it was just it was a tournament of getting concussed and I had to go on medical leave from Leo Burnett.

Oh, wow.

So in some ways, that kind of forced my decision to enter into a little bit of the entrepreneurial world. So I had to figure out like, what would my life be if I couldn't go to the office and participate that way, and so started a mini consulting project from my couch kind of thing, finally had to tell Leo Burnett that I just couldn't do it, but started to recover and created a position at USA Rugby. And so you know, it's kind of like the sport that led me to this, I said, what the hell, I can't beat them, join them, type thing.

(laughing) Great, let me promote it!

(laughing) Yeah. Yeah, for better or worse, created the marketing department there, joined the nonprofit kind of world, worked, you know, on five years of stuff in a couple of years, it was just a crazy insane time, and ended up joining the board, helping to develop new products and things on the for-profit side of sports sponsorships for rugby, and then moved to Minnesota to be with my wife, Tracy and, and joined Head of Marketing at a real estate group here, grew into the largest property management company in the country, and we sold to a private equity group. And then I started a professional marketing company just to do quick start marketing, for private equity for businesses that just wanted fractional pieces of things and to get moving fast and couldn't afford full marketing departments. So that was kind of fun and entrepreneurial, but you know, it's interesting, I got called into the Rugby World as a CEO and board chairman of the for-profit entity of USA Rugby called the Rugby International Marketing, and it was a total mess. So I spent seven months restructuring the business, raising expensive capital doing the largest rights deal in USA Rugby history, and firing people, it was just a total train wreck. And I started to realize that, you know what, what it meant to run a business super well. And that wasn't it. So just got them stabilized, exited, and started to reevaluate kind of what I wanted to offer clients. And Tracy, my wife said, Hey, you'd be a great EOS coach. As you had mentioned earlier, this is the entrepreneurial operating system. It's a coaching system for entrepreneurs. And we used it at one of my Real Estate Groups, but I had no idea how powerful it was almost until I lived without it. So became a coach and started coaching. So that was like, I had an entrepreneurial marketing group, I became a coach of the US system, and then kind of accidentally fell into Head of Marketing for US Worldwide. It's like I'm a Forrest Gump of marketing. The thing that comes up? Yeah, so that's kind of why I'm like marketing, marketing, marketing, and then swirling down in this entrepreneurial world, and you know, then suddenly, now I invested in a robotic lawn mowing company with my brother in St. Louis, Missouri, and then created a toy company.

Yeah. Okay, so now you're in the serial entrepreneur status. That's the new badge that you have, we need to get you a sash. And we just need to put like the Girl Scout badges on for all the things that you've done with excellence. So tell us okay, what was the inspiration for Sport Bigs? You mentioned what your experience was, as a college athlete, tell us the story

Well actually from the very beginning, I think, you know, it's funny, I was swimming, I was swimming in training for some were some world World Championship, I think was in Denmark. And I just started thinking about the total, you know, somewhat I would have loved to play with as a kid. I don't know why I was thinking that. But I started to think, you know, I didn't have it. I know that. And I was just like, why didn't I like the girl toys? My mom tried to get me the Cabbage Patch Kids. And I just couldn't like to fall in love with any of that. And I did have GI Joes and like,

Stretch Armstrong?

Stretch? I did not have to stretch.

Oh, that would have been a good one.

Okay, I gotta look that up. But I had, you no, there's a lot of male action figure things. And there wasn't anything for females back then. I mean, I think there is more now. Right? But um, so I started with this idea that there was going to be this whole athlete action figure sets. And in fact, my first route was to develop a whole line of plastic toys that would be celebrity kind of or just hero athletes,

Like the WWE does?

Yeah, kind of right. And so and then I just, you know, it ended up being a lot longer story of like, how I learned how to pivot from that, but, um, you know, yeah, the result now is 18-inch plush toys, that have celebrity athletes, speaking within and saying real stuff, like, real locker room talk, you know, for us, you know, like, things that matter? Not, you know, you, you know, Try hard or Play fair or Good try, you know, it's, it's, it's, You didn't wake up to be average today, you know, that, that means something to me and my world of athletes.

Yes, absolutely. Okay, so, tell us when, when you first had the idea, right? And at the time, you were thinking it was action figures, going to be action figures, to the point where now they're plush toys that speak? What was that timeframe, from the time you like, really started to take action on the idea to it being a product in your hand?

You know, I'd need to do the math on that. But I'd say it's about two and a half to three years because I had to find the people that can help me. I mean, it's, you know, like, Okay, what am I just said, hey, go and go create and produce a toy. And then you know, so just right from there, you have to go through this whole exercise of concepting and market research and supply chains and, you know, designers and manufacturers and just the intelligence of the legal side of things. So it took a while. And I was doing it as a side hustle project as I was starting to get money, you know, I had to earn the money to be able to invest in the toy project, you know, it took years to try to make sure that I could fund it.

Yes. And when you think about that, because funding is such a big risk category, right for entrepreneurs, for anybody really like money gets in the way of a lot of things. Our mindset around it, that actual, you know, collection of it, generation of it. So when you think about, if I'm like thinking about, I want to create a product, Pam, I don't but let's just say I did. You know like, what's at risk there? Like, what didn't you know about that kind of made your teeth clench?

I didn't know anything. I didn't know anything. But I think it's true, it's that financial power to be able to feel like you could go do and try is critical. And let's be, let's be very clear I am, you know, I worked my ass off to try to get to a place where I could fund the dream, you know, and it wasn't until my you know, third or fourth major career shift where I felt like I had the capital to kind of do this and, and, there could have been some other means by taking out a loan or whatever. And, I think that's certainly that could be an option. But I am a white privileged female who came from a family who appreciated female things, right, like, so there's just like the sense of I worked my butt off. But man, I'm lucky as heck to be able to kind of do what I did, um. And so I think financing these things is hard no matter what. And to be able to feel like I could keep taking the risk. You know, I certainly, I'm lucky.

I think there's also, it's important to recognize when you first were envisioning what you were going to create to what got created, like, give us a comparison. And how does the final product look compared to your initial thoughts?

Well, I'll tell you, I mean, the audience can't see it. But this is, this is the original plastic prototype. There was a softball player, and it was 14 inches, so it was two inches taller than Barbie, it was modeled after it a incredible athlete from Michigan and just was everything I wanted it to be. But it turns out that that is, it's really expensive to fail at. And I for some reason, remember getting kind of pushed into plush as a possible opportunity. And I can kind of show you. So I don't know if you've seen that even these but like this is the ultimate big plush, the 18 inches, and I kept getting bigger and bigger as I went. But the journey of discovering that was incredible. I ended up diving into this idea of Who, not How. So, who could tell me what to do versus figuring out the how, because it's not a new idea that somebody can create a toy, you know, like, toys exist, people have done it? So how do I go and find those people that can help inform me or get connected to the right people? And that methodology and kind of mindset helped me get connected to people that knew how to concept the toy with me, they knew how to design the, you know, I ended up finding the right people to design the 2d and 3d modeling of the concept. And then I found a seamstress to build me a plush prototype, you know, in her house. And then like, collectively, I would get these samples. And then I needed to figure out how if I was onto something and if I could go manufacture it. And I'll tell you, I came through a couple of my other entrepreneurial contacts and randomly through EOS in real estate, believe it or not, one of my colleagues' wife was in Toy manufacturing, or she was buying toys for SeaWorld, and I think, and just connected me with a couple of people. And I was able to keep connecting and keep asking how, and they got my tickets to the New York Toy Fair, which was, is right before the pandemic, the last one before everything collapsed. And it got me access to this unbelievable world of people where I brought the toys that we thought you know, I had me in my life, my friend and colleague Laura Gill went out and had the toy concepts and we're gonna go prove our concept and learn just such an amazing fit, you know, amount of things there. And of course, learned more about what we didn't know. You know, ended up connecting to more people we sign up to, for an organization called Women in Toys. Turns out there's an entire group of 2000 plus members, women in toys, and they were somebody I started to sign up for and got some, you know, got connected. And they started a new mentorship program. From it's funny, though, the founder of Barbie started this mentorship program for females in toys, women.

Oh my god

And I signed up for it and I got, I got connected to a woman in Hong Kong, who is this amazing business person, a woman in toys, and she took on my project and like I had no intention of her helping me but like the way she did, but she says I'm going to help you. Unbelievable. So you know, 11 o'clock and noon phone calls at night to try to end translations through China. She helped me source the manufacturing company that, in China developed the cabbage patch kids, so it goes full circle, the Cabbage Patch Kids that I didn't want to play with are now the ones they, you know, like the manufacturer who made them made my toys. And ah, here we go, like the world keeps spinning and I, through all of these connections figured out how to develop a manufacturer or a toy in China during a pandemic, and figure out, and a global supply chain crisis and somehow get it shipped to the United States.

Okay, so for anyone out there thinking that something is hard, that they can't do it, rewind the last few minutes in particular, and listen to this, because it's very inspiring because there's no possible way that you would have known when you started when, you know, like, I have an idea, this is important to me, I want to make it happen, that all these other actions would happen. Right? Like, you can't think your way to the result. And so many times, you coach, I coach, how many times do we have to like to remind entrepreneurs, business leaders, like, just start you like your messages, take the action, you'll learn more, you'll pivot you'll adjust... Then you celebrate it.

Oh yeah, there is no map there is no- There, you know, it's like it reminds me of the old days when marketing people we put together these like 500 pages, PowerPoint presentations that sit in a deck and tell us all about how smart we were, but you know, the real work is in the doing and, you know, this phrase, how we do things is sometimes more important than what we do. And that was a phrase that a boss that was very challenging for me, at Leo Burnett did teach me and I really, I've taken it to heart and it does matter, right? And I and this idea of just starting and figuring out as you go, you know, really benefited me. And it was the only way because I had known, the 300,000 steps that it took to like get this thing on to the market. I don't know if you'd ever start. You just be so darn exhausted by this.

Yes.

So it's truly about a little combination of grit and growth and telling everyone, No, I believe in this, I think this is going to happen. I mean, you gotta be smart about it, right? Like you're not going to you know, you don't just purposely run through a brick wall just because but um, you know, I have this mentality of, is, if it doesn't fit, force it, (laughing) which sometimes, helps me, it's gotten me this far, more and more, it does not help me, but I think in certain cases.

That's okay. We're gonna focus on the ways that it'll help you. Okay, so tell us who the Sports Bigs are modeled after.

Oh, yes. So I've got Rebekkah Brunson.

Yay. Who's also been on the Champions of RISK podcast.

She's so amazing, right? And I think it's fun It's so fun because it's been like a journey of getting to know her and befriending her, and we've become friends and so yeah, this five time WNBA champion six times WNBA all-defensive teams, like she's got she's a career leader in a ton of categories. You know, assistant coach, just a, and a good person, like.

And an entrepreneur now too

And an entrepreneur you know, so she sells amazing waffles and vegan cookies Sweet Troo Vi is based in Minneapolis, and her wife Bobbi, as well as her partner is just incredible. So a really good person. And I got connected with her. I'll tell you I got connected with her by asking, asking a friend of ours who works security, Amy Killian, who works security for the Lynx in the WNBA. And I said give me somebody who's just literally a legend that would be interested in taking this journey with me. And she is like Rebekkah Brunson is unbelievable. Great person, great great baller, so off and running, love the vision. And Lori Lindsey. So she's a former pro soccer player. She's also a part of the NBC broadcast team for the Olympics now for soccer. She's 10-year member of the US women's national team and played in some World Cups like unbelievable, was nominated for the US National Soccer Hall of Fame, just a credible person again, this kind of repeat theme of an amazing individual, you know, values are driven person and activists in their right and female sport and women's sports, LGBTQ community. Amazing. And then we've got Lisa Fernandez, who is probably one of the like, big like most impressive competitors I've ever met or come across, like this one-

That's saying something coming from you, Pam.

Yeah, she's somebody who like doesn't understand how to lose like just this ultimate competitor, three-time Olympic gold medalist. Legend softball player third base and pitcher, three-time Pan American gold medalist four-time world champion. I mean, her rap sheet is unbelievable. She's an assistant coach at UCLA now. And it's funny, I again, 'who not how', I reconnected with my old teammate at Michigan, Melissa Gentilly. And she, I said, Hey, I need somebody who's a baller a legend, like, you know who you can, you can, you know, connect me to, and she immediately after loving the concept said Lisa Fernandez is gonna love this. And I said Lisa is like, you know, God and the softball world. And I said, and within 24 hours, I was on the phone with her and her agent. And I did a deal within like, a week, you know, and so we, and I've gotten to get to know Lisa. And what's also interesting is that I was part of a team that played against the Olympic team when they were training for the Olympics. And I was selected when I was like, 15 or 16 years old. And I threw out Lisa Fernandez at shortstop, and it was like, still the highlight of my, like, young career back then. And I told her about it, I threw you out. And she did not think that was as funny as I did. She was like, kind of mad by it. And I'm like, she's truly the best competitor. So good people.

And she still decided to participate. So that as well.

She's like, I can still kick your ass. Oh, okay. You know.

Okay, that sounds great. So you mentioned that each one of the are we calling them toys?

Oh, plush, yeah, they're kind of they're interactive, right? So they Yeah, yeah, you can call them plush toys. Yeah, sure.

Okay, but not dolls.

I don't like dolls. I don't know why. I mean, I just had never played with them. It doesn't resonate with me. But you know, I guess by definition, they're a doll.

Yeah, it doesn't roll off the tongue. So that's where my hesitation was with that. But I, you mentioned that their voice so that they're saying real locker room things, you know, audience-appropriate. But, what are some of your favorites? Like, what's your number one favorite across the board of all the things that the models for this recorded?

You didn't wake up to be average today. I mean, I just sense of like, go big or go home, you know, and it's funny, it's like, on one hand, I'm saying that that drives me and like to in today's role, I need to actually like, I'm trying to fall back in love with average, because I need to slow down and like not to try to be the best all the time. But you know, when you're growing up in your, in your formative years, this idea that like I can do more, I can be better, I can grow bigger, play big dream big be big, right to sensibly Go for it. So I think that's kind of a fun one. And then I'm every one of the athletes says something funny about food. And so my other favorite one is just: Eat your broccoli. One of the phrases that Laurie says I just think, you know, as a reminder, it's important to eat well.

Fuel yourself. Okay, so how did you come up with the name Sports Bigs? And what's the intention? What what's the movement behind Sports Bigs?

Great question. Well, first of all, every name in the world is taken. So it took me a while to land on this. And this is a good story because the original name was Sport Beasts. And this is, so I, and here's why I had landed on it at the time. My son Lincoln, who's now 11 is like, you know, a little feminist in the making. So just like he was supportive and like, loved what I was doing. And we were trying to figure out the name. And one day I said, Hey, I think I got it Sport Beasts, like this idea of like, beast mode this whole idea of like, you know, women playing big and hard and aggressive and all that stuff. And he goes, and h wasn't into it. And I said, Wh don't you add to it? And h said, Well, I don't know. just, I feel like you might b tricking people into thinking it's a boy's toy. And I was like, Oh my god, this is the problem. Like literally, that's the problem. And it just brought the whole thing, so I was like Well, now it's going to be named Sport Beasts Because I, I want, that's the whole point. And so it's kind o interesting, like women couldn't be that. When I said I said, but then as I went along, I'll tell you, there was like many years This, I had logos developed, had a prototype developed, I had patterns developed. Here I go And one of my best friends, Je Sinkler kind of planted seed with me for a while and finally said, Pam, you need to change the name. And I said, Why? What are you talking about? She's like, you need to change the name. This is a derogatory term for black athletes. And the idea that it's it's essentially a racist trope. mean, it's become that because it's a sense of, you know, some athletes feeling like they are not respected for their intelligence and their IQ o the field. And it opened up the whole world of understanding And that, man, I, that is the last thing that I want people t resonate with. So thankfully she finally, you know, brought enough of that awareness to me and I did research and I got t talk to athletes and say, Wow you know, there was a chance people could be offended, and wasn't about to take the chance. So I redid everything and came up with Sports Bigs. It was my second choice. And then I thought, I loved I more. It was one of those things, thank God, I pivoted, and felt better about it all the way. And we get to celebrate bigness and this big character big mindset, big dreams, big voice. And so it worked

Yeah, thank you for sharing what didn't work and why. Because that's a really important message. Because even while you're telling me the story, I'm admittedly going okay, I like why why can't you use that word? I. So that's important for all of us to hear that and to know it and, and to understand it, and, and I love that the integrity that you have is just like, if it's not going to happen, we're going Plan B, Plan B becomes plan A, in we go.

Yeah. Welcome to the entrepreneur world. Plan, you know, Plan B, Plan C, plan D, it is all you have to have. And so I can't tell you how many times that happened throughout the process, including a $42,000 mistake.

Oh, tell us about the $42,000 mistake, because there's a lesson in that.

Yeah, I thought, you know, like, this idea of like risk versus reward, I had this big dream of wanting to make this an interactive, like a truly interactive toy, Bluetooth enabled, where you can, you know, put your voice in and have celebrity voices come into the toy, all that stuff. Turns out, that is a very difficult world to do from the beginning. And it's very expensive. And I invested in an app developer, and, frankly, in Ukraine, which was, you know, neither here nor there. But he happened to be located there. And it was a, I thought things were going a lot better than they were and realized that the whole thing was a big fraud. So I ended up, I ended up having to create, like a 300-page lawsuit against this person and about against the platform I was using. I won. That's good. But in the middle of it, yeah, like distractions like that, where, you know, I was on the floor, having a breakdown that I had lost $42,000 and chasing some stupid dream that, you know, it was way too risky. For the, and I didn't know what I was doing. And it and it showed, right, so I had to pull back. And luckily, I was able to write this right the ship but um, you know, it happens? No, it's not if it's when you're going to hit the ceiling, it's when you're going to get injured when you just have to keep preparing yourself to be strong enough to get through it.

Yeah. Wow. And still, I just want to say all of that happening in a pandemic with global chain supply, and supply chain breakdowns. And all these still in two and a half years. You went, because I know, I can think of one other person who's in I think her ninth year of trying to get her product to market for lots of other reasons. Right? I mean, it just doesn't always go that fast. So Pam.

Well, that's a good perspective. But yeah, I mean, we had to wait, you know, the Olympics got shifted, we are going to launch during the Olympics and those got shifted. I mean, yeah, it was a lot of chasing, you know, I it's constant like I hate the word, You know, pivots like used, it's overused, but really you just have to be agile to be able to do the right thing but also you know, stick to your guns on you know, what, what you want to bring to that market like what matters to you, or Do you truly believe in this and like, can you weather that storm? And it's not easy.

Yeah. Well, part of what I think was propelling you forward on this is also that desire that through Sports Bigs you would enhance the exposure of women's sports, women athletes. Hopefully like pay equity is involved in there. Yeah, yeah. All of the issue is that your timing is great because there's more and more exposure of what's not right. But what do you hope for Sports Bigs long term?

Yeah, I mean, Look, the ultimate dream is not a toy

Yeah. And in support of that, Pam, how can company, you know, it's a company on a mission to be the largest sponsor of women's sports in the world. You know, we fundamentally want to grow this company on the backs of, and with, not the backs of-maybe that's the wrong phrase, but alongside with and through the power of women in, you know, women in, women athletes, period, athletes in women's sports. Okay, because there's also that whole world of nonbinary athletes that we have to make sure that we are considering in this including the trans athlete fight, right? So all of this has got to be super inclusive, and building up the opportunity for more girls and nonbinary and trans athletes to be playing sports, to be accelerating in sports to be able to enjoy the gifts that sport gifts, the participation, and the economics of women's sports are there for the taking. You know, I'll tell you, the fan project has come out with an incredible amount of data to support the economic impact of sponsorship in women's sports. The Tucker Center for Research on girls and women in sports and Dr. Nicole LaVoy, sup r inspirational about doing the hard research that it takes o really understand the marketplace dynamics. All f this is now coming into a world where the disruption and n the media landscape is going o position women's sports for a whole nother world of growth. And I think, you know, that s what we want. And it's one try at a time, right? I want o reinvest as much as I can n women's sports, and then go o the next thing and keep growing it and saying let's disrupt the sponsorship model. Let's discuss t the entire commercial model f women's sports. And you know, it's one company at a time essentially. But I want as many toys in girls' hands and your hands, it doesn't, girls and bo s and all gender types, we, yo want to see great athletes represented. And that's what didn't have as a kid and that' 's what I hope that these toys you know, will do for people people buy a Sport Bigs?

Oh, sure. Sportbigs.com. There you go. Super easy, free shipping. And we'll also send you a wristband. That is the same one that the toy is wearing. So I'm bringing back the wristband, Michael?

Like the terry cloth ones?

Oh yeah

Oh, really?

Oh, yeah.

I like this. With- and, are knee socks next?

Yes, absolutely. Totally. Let's go old school sweating with the oldies.

Oh, Pam, that this is just I knew it was gonna be a fun conversation. It's been a joy ride. Tell me tell people how can they follow you.

Yeah, I mean, @sportbigs. We're on all the platforms. I'm even trying Tic Tok, God help me, you know, but we're getting out there. I mean, we want to have a lot of fun. Everything's big. So just know, we were at pride and had seven and a half feet of foot inflatables of the toys themselves. So we're going big, we're gonna do everything big. We'd love to have everybody on the journey with us. And you know, if it's not for you, please share with the people that you think it would be for.

Yes. Oh, okay. Well, I can't wait to see that inflatable. And Pam, thank you so much for sharing the journey there. I mean, somebody out there is going to hear this episode. And you're gonna make a huge difference for them because they're somewhere in that process. And you're gonna inspire them to keep going. So thank you. I appreciate your time.

Thank you for the opportunity. It's so good to connect with you again.

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